Celtic sword: Bamborough

werecow · 11th November 2023, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Dear Werecow, What an excellent post! I was most impressed with the observation of the weapon having two sides to it...and that the wear was more on one side than the other through training / using the sword against an opponent. I suspect that wear on one side is however, also made by the hand resting on one side of the hilt and that the high mount was responsible for that. The fact that these swords were shown to have pommels that in later designs were made giving a better grip and became seated about a centimeter over to one side ...a fact I had totally missed and which becomes important in how any wear in the pommel developed.

One other aspect worried me since your video shows two exponents with anglo saxon swords training and by giving point in their duel... My thought was that with such good broadswords would the style not be more of a chopping slashing action...in which case the grip would have been more of a full grip in both fighters...not a grip enabling the giving point technique...

I guess the answer there is we don't really know how it was used, as there are no surviving treatises from that era.

I do think Roland Warzecha makes a good case for the way he grips the sword using both the physics of the sword (and user) itself, the wear patterns, and the geometry of the grip (noting the way it is shaped to fit the palm of the hand and also the way most of the antique examples have a slight twist and an asymmetry to them).
He has a lot of hands on experience sparring with these swords, which I think does count for something, although of course the way one uses these in modern sparring is by necessity informed guesswork.
I also can't personally confirm what he's saying, since I personally do not have any sparring experience. It would be interesting to know if these swords would allow for effective tip cuts for example. My guess is you can cut very high up with them including with that broad tip, which would make this extended grip he's suggesting more sensible, but that is just guess work on my part.

IMO it would be rather peculiar if the people of this era did not make use of the full reach and most efficient physics and control that the geometry of the grips and pommels on their swords would grant them. But then, we do know of other swords where a hammer fist was the norm (e.g. the tulwar) or where their appearance is deceiving (e.g. Khyber knives not being used for thrusting), so in the absence of more convincing evidence it is hard to say.

In any case, it's interesting. He has multiple other videos on his channel where he makes his case, and he also has a number of sparring videos on there, and looks at several antique examples. It's a channel worth checking out.

(And of course, there is no reason why the wear patterns on the grips could not be due to both the way the sword was wielded and also the way it was worn.)

Peter Hudson · 12th November 2023, 12:10 AM

Did The Celts sweep in from somewhere to our East or was it simply a culture that spread its limbs to the remote parts of our country?...Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUROWkSN_Y4 and an astonishing conclusion.

Peter Hudson · 12th November 2023, 12:54 AM

Wikipedia reminds me to steer more toward The Anglo Saxon Sword Form thus I QUOTE"Pollington describes the sword as "the most symbolically important weapon" of the Anglo-Saxon period,[29] and historian Guy Halsall referred to it as "the most treasured item of early medieval military equipment."[18] In Old English, swords were termed sweord, although other terms used for such weapons included heoru or heru, bill or bile, and mēce or mǣce.[29] Anglo-Saxon swords comprised two-edged straight, flat blades.[29] The tang of the blade was covered by a hilt, which consisted of an upper and lower guard, a pommel, and a grip by which the sword was held.[29] Pommels could be elaborately decorated with a variety of styles. Examples include the Abingdon Sword or the pommel found in the Bedale Hoard, which was decorated with inlaid gold.[30] These Anglo-Saxon blades, the tang included, typically measured 86–94 cm (34–37 in) in length, and 4.5–5.5 cm (1.8–2.2 in) in width.[31] Larger examples have been found, with some reaching up to 100 cm (39 in) in length and 6.5 cm (2.6 in) in width.[31]

The Abingdon Sword, found near Abingdon, Oxfordshire; the hilt decoration is typical of ninth-century English metalwork[32]
Rather than being able to melt the iron ore into a complete billet, the furnaces of the period were only able to produce small pieces of iron, which were subsequently forge welded into a single blade. To accomplish this, the pieces would either be beaten into thin sheets that were then hammered together as a laminated blade or placed together as thin rods and then welded together.[33] Additionally, some of these blades were constructed using pattern welding. With this method, the iron was beaten into strips, which were twisted together and then forge welded.[34] The twisting removed much surface slag, which could cause weaknesses in the finished blade.[35] Pattern welding also produced patterns in the finished blade, most commonly a herringbone pattern.[36] Such patterns are often referenced in Anglo-Saxon literature—they are described using terms such as brogenmæl ('weaving marks'), wundenmæl ('winding marks'), grægmæl ('grey mark'), and scirmæl ('brightly patterned').[33][37] Therefore, Pollington stated that the decoration produced by pattern-welding was important and desired in Anglo-Saxon society.[38] Many blades also had a fuller, which was a shallow groove that ran the length of the blade. The fuller reduced the blade's overall weight while not compromising the thickness. Fullers were produced by hammering into the blade or chiselling out a section.[39]

A few swords bore runic inscriptions—a sixth-century example found at Gilton in Kent had an inscription saying that "Sigimer Made This Sword."[40] Textual sources indicate that swords were sometimes given names, such as the Hrunting sword from Beowulf.[41] On some swords from the sixth century onward, rings were attached to the upper guard or pommel, many of which were ornamented.[42] These rings sometimes served a practical purpose—for example, a soldier could tie a cord to the ring and subsequently hang the sword from their wrist. This practice is attested in later Viking sagas. In other cases, however, ring knobs were used and it was impossible to hang the sword in this manner. Therefore, ring knobs were likely symbolic or ritualistic.[42]

In Old English, the scabbard was known as a scēaþ ('sheath'), although the term fætels also appears in Anglo-Saxon literature and may have had the same meaning.[43] The scabbard itself was typically made of wood or leather, and the inside was often lined with fleece or fur. The inside might have also been greased or oiled to prevent the sword from rusting.[44] Some scabbards were further protected by a metal binding at their neck (known as a frog or locket) and a chape at the bottom.[45] A bead of glass, amber, crystal, or meerschaum was attached by a small strap to the neck of some scabbards. There are examples of similar beads from Iron Age Germanic regions of continental Europe, and it is likely that they were adopted from the Huns during the fifth century. The beads may have been used for amuletic purposes—later Icelandic sagas reference swords with "healing stones" attached, and these stones may be the same as Anglo-Saxon beads.[46]

The sword and scabbard were suspended from either a baldric on the shoulder or from a belt on the waist. The former method was evidently popular in early Anglo-Saxon England, but the latter gained popularity in the later Anglo-Saxon period. For example, the Bayeux Tapestry only depicts the use of belts for sword carrying.[45]

The weight of these swords, along with descriptions of them in literature like The Battle of Maldon, indicates that they were used primarily for cutting and slashing rather than thrusting.[47] Several Anglo-Saxon corpses were apparently injured or killed in this manner; the cemetery of Eccles in Kent contains three individuals who had sword cuts to the left sides of their skulls.[48]"UNQUOTE.

12th November 2023, 12:10 AM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	The Celts. Did The Celts sweep in from somewhere to our East or was it simply a culture that spread its limbs to the remote parts of our country?...Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUROWkSN_Y4 and an astonishing conclusion.

12th November 2023, 12:54 AM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Anglo Saxon . Wikipedia reminds me to steer more toward The Anglo Saxon Sword Form thus I QUOTE"Pollington describes the sword as "the most symbolically important weapon" of the Anglo-Saxon period,[29] and historian Guy Halsall referred to it as "the most treasured item of early medieval military equipment."[18] In Old English, swords were termed sweord, although other terms used for such weapons included heoru or heru, bill or bile, and mēce or mǣce.[29] Anglo-Saxon swords comprised two-edged straight, flat blades.[29] The tang of the blade was covered by a hilt, which consisted of an upper and lower guard, a pommel, and a grip by which the sword was held.[29] Pommels could be elaborately decorated with a variety of styles. Examples include the Abingdon Sword or the pommel found in the Bedale Hoard, which was decorated with inlaid gold.[30] These Anglo-Saxon blades, the tang included, typically measured 86–94 cm (34–37 in) in length, and 4.5–5.5 cm (1.8–2.2 in) in width.[31] Larger examples have been found, with some reaching up to 100 cm (39 in) in length and 6.5 cm (2.6 in) in width.[31] The Abingdon Sword, found near Abingdon, Oxfordshire; the hilt decoration is typical of ninth-century English metalwork[32] Rather than being able to melt the iron ore into a complete billet, the furnaces of the period were only able to produce small pieces of iron, which were subsequently forge welded into a single blade. To accomplish this, the pieces would either be beaten into thin sheets that were then hammered together as a laminated blade or placed together as thin rods and then welded together.[33] Additionally, some of these blades were constructed using pattern welding. With this method, the iron was beaten into strips, which were twisted together and then forge welded.[34] The twisting removed much surface slag, which could cause weaknesses in the finished blade.[35] Pattern welding also produced patterns in the finished blade, most commonly a herringbone pattern.[36] Such patterns are often referenced in Anglo-Saxon literature—they are described using terms such as brogenmæl ('weaving marks'), wundenmæl ('winding marks'), grægmæl ('grey mark'), and scirmæl ('brightly patterned').[33][37] Therefore, Pollington stated that the decoration produced by pattern-welding was important and desired in Anglo-Saxon society.[38] Many blades also had a fuller, which was a shallow groove that ran the length of the blade. The fuller reduced the blade's overall weight while not compromising the thickness. Fullers were produced by hammering into the blade or chiselling out a section.[39] A few swords bore runic inscriptions—a sixth-century example found at Gilton in Kent had an inscription saying that "Sigimer Made This Sword."[40] Textual sources indicate that swords were sometimes given names, such as the Hrunting sword from Beowulf.[41] On some swords from the sixth century onward, rings were attached to the upper guard or pommel, many of which were ornamented.[42] These rings sometimes served a practical purpose—for example, a soldier could tie a cord to the ring and subsequently hang the sword from their wrist. This practice is attested in later Viking sagas. In other cases, however, ring knobs were used and it was impossible to hang the sword in this manner. Therefore, ring knobs were likely symbolic or ritualistic.[42] In Old English, the scabbard was known as a scēaþ ('sheath'), although the term fætels also appears in Anglo-Saxon literature and may have had the same meaning.[43] The scabbard itself was typically made of wood or leather, and the inside was often lined with fleece or fur. The inside might have also been greased or oiled to prevent the sword from rusting.[44] Some scabbards were further protected by a metal binding at their neck (known as a frog or locket) and a chape at the bottom.[45] A bead of glass, amber, crystal, or meerschaum was attached by a small strap to the neck of some scabbards. There are examples of similar beads from Iron Age Germanic regions of continental Europe, and it is likely that they were adopted from the Huns during the fifth century. The beads may have been used for amuletic purposes—later Icelandic sagas reference swords with "healing stones" attached, and these stones may be the same as Anglo-Saxon beads.[46] The sword and scabbard were suspended from either a baldric on the shoulder or from a belt on the waist. The former method was evidently popular in early Anglo-Saxon England, but the latter gained popularity in the later Anglo-Saxon period. For example, the Bayeux Tapestry only depicts the use of belts for sword carrying.[45] The weight of these swords, along with descriptions of them in literature like The Battle of Maldon, indicates that they were used primarily for cutting and slashing rather than thrusting.[47] Several Anglo-Saxon corpses were apparently injured or killed in this manner; the cemetery of Eccles in Kent contains three individuals who had sword cuts to the left sides of their skulls.[48]"UNQUOTE.