An unusual blade

Gavin Nugent · 8th November 2023, 12:08 PM

Mystery solved some years ago, Jambi is the origins.

A couple of others crept into the collection since 2017 too.

Those either side carry Alif pamor.

A. G. Maisey · 8th November 2023, 07:44 PM

Gavin, would a close-up of the "alif" pamor be possible?

David · 14th November 2023, 08:46 PM

Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

Gavin Nugent · 17th November 2023, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

Hello, David, Alan,

Apologies, I thought you may have seen the first image in the post and read on. (inserting broken shrug emoji.(when will the emoji be fixed?)).

The feature is Anak Sungai, not Alif. All is solved on both fronts.

I have below an Alif image from another Malay blade here though, it is part of a blade with triple Alif.

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2023, 12:17 PM

Thank you very much Gavin, I do appreciate you providing both your text and the image, however, I am mystified.

Perhaps you might be able to give us a little bit of the back story on how, where or who you sourced this information from?

I am familiar with the alif, & also the problems surrounding that letter ( & other letters).

In the context of bladed weaponry, the word pamor indicates metal that has been mixed, your image in post 18 is a mark, it is not pamor. What I believe I can see in your post 18 image is an incision, it might be a flaw, it might be something else, but it is not any sort of pamor motif. The line in the center of the first blade you posted is a cold shut, a flaw, it is not pamor.

Where pamor alif --- or more correctly in BI & Malay, "alip" --- does occur, it has the form of one of the ways in which the letter alif can be written, and it is normally an inclusion in a more dominant pamor, usually an intended inclusion, but it can occur accidentally.The main thing is, it is a part of the more dominant pamor from which it emerges. Sometimes a bad flaw will be filled with a strip of pamor & the seller will name it as "pamor alip" , I suppose that's OK if he can convince the buyer that it was all intentional.

The welding flaw that is usually described as "anak sungai" in some Malay keris usually occurs in blades with pamor miring where the construction of the pamor requires a weld that joins two bars of manipulated material, when this welded joint fails and a cold shut results in the finished work, that cold shut gets named as "anak sungai". An "anak sungai" can occur in any blade where the material has been folded and welded, but wherever it does occur it is just a polite name for a cold shut in the welding work.

The term "anak sungai" means a small tributary of a larger stream, and that cold shut running down the middle of the blade looks just like a little wandering creek or brook.

In your photos I can see what could be referred to as an anak sungai in the first blade, but since this blade has no pamor, we cannot call it "pamor anak sungai". In the other blades I also cannot see any pamor, nor can I see any marks that resemble either an alip or an anak sungai.

In respect of the use of the English word "random" in reference to a pamor motif. When we consider a blade to have a "random" pamor motif, it is a pamor that has been made by repeated folding & welding but without any manipulation, ie, a pure mlumah pamor, wos (beras) wutah or ngulit semangko. In Javanese we call this random pattern a "tiban" pamor motif; the word "tiban" means something that has come down or fallen, in the case of a tiban pamor motif, that pamor motif has come down from above, ie from the hand of God, it is not an intended pamor motif created by the maker.

Gavin Nugent · 19th November 2023, 11:28 AM

Hi Alan,

Thank you, I can very much appreciate where you are coming from, and understand exactly what it is you are saying. Pamor is the incorrect term.
I had moved on from the term pamor and called it a feature though.

I rely heavily on learned Malaysian friends and others for some of the finer points on Malay Keris lore, often bouncing thoughts, ideas and quandaries off them whilst I flesh through the myriad of complexities, refer to books, institute collections and elsewhere to gather and or confirm data found and discuss. Often detail is lost in translation and my more my interpretation.
I have been assured though, the feature itself though is Alif and culturally considered Alif.

As a side note, TBH, until last week I had NO idea that the form of the Saras Jarum sepucuk was in the design, representant of lam and Alif. Not pamor I know, but representative of the characters, much like my thoughts on this Java blade's features being that of Arjuna Sasrabahu, the thread however died a natural death as I don't think such design elements are touched upon often enough to be explored to their full potential. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28924

On the snippet shared, which I've called the Alif feature, the blade perhaps needs to be viewed under glass in hand.
I believe it is mechanically planned to open at the three Alif points. Whilst the thicker base and mid sections have what could be considered a post forging additions, there is too much variance in width and depth on close examination, and the Alif to the tip has variance in angles like a subtle 5 luk blade.
The blade is a blend of differential steels, and, not true pamor in the purest sense, more like the bark off an old ironbark in a two dimensional sense. A wootz without the finesse... I liken it to a blend of Besi bari lubang jarum, retak arong, and retak kaki lipan when looking at all features.
It has clear contrasting sections of very tiny proportions running the entire length, and I do see within the sections, being the base, middle and tip that carry the Alif feature or motif, a horizontal and vertical layering of differential overlapping metals, like scales if I had to describe it, whilst the sections between are all vertically running differential metals mostly.

Does this suggest the mechanical layering was by design intended to open in these particular three places during the manufacture process?

On the original blade discussed, the "little wandering brook" seems very purposeful in that it opens a on the medial ridge, a fraction above inner triangle, through to just short of the blades tip. The reverse as noted has nil such features.
The blade design leads me to ask, does the blade itself with the triple "v"s represent an inverted "V", Gunungan, or "8" in Arabic?

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2023, 08:25 PM

Thank you Gavin, I believe I now understand much that previously was not clear to me.

Malaysian sources?

We are using very different understandings & value systems, when this happens it is a bit like a Frenchman, thinking & speaking in French, conversing about Turkey with somebody from Hong Kong who is thinking & speaking in Cantonese.

I probably have nothing of value to contribute further.

8th November 2023, 12:08 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Mystery solved some years ago, Jambi is the origins. A couple of others crept into the collection since 2017 too. Those either side carry Alif pamor. Attached Images

19th November 2023, 11:28 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Alan, Thank you, I can very much appreciate where you are coming from, and understand exactly what it is you are saying. Pamor is the incorrect term. I had moved on from the term pamor and called it a feature though. I rely heavily on learned Malaysian friends and others for some of the finer points on Malay Keris lore, often bouncing thoughts, ideas and quandaries off them whilst I flesh through the myriad of complexities, refer to books, institute collections and elsewhere to gather and or confirm data found and discuss. Often detail is lost in translation and my more my interpretation. I have been assured though, the feature itself though is Alif and culturally considered Alif. As a side note, TBH, until last week I had NO idea that the form of the Saras Jarum sepucuk was in the design, representant of lam and Alif. Not pamor I know, but representative of the characters, much like my thoughts on this Java blade's features being that of Arjuna Sasrabahu, the thread however died a natural death as I don't think such design elements are touched upon often enough to be explored to their full potential. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28924 On the snippet shared, which I've called the Alif feature, the blade perhaps needs to be viewed under glass in hand. I believe it is mechanically planned to open at the three Alif points. Whilst the thicker base and mid sections have what could be considered a post forging additions, there is too much variance in width and depth on close examination, and the Alif to the tip has variance in angles like a subtle 5 luk blade. The blade is a blend of differential steels, and, not true pamor in the purest sense, more like the bark off an old ironbark in a two dimensional sense. A wootz without the finesse... I liken it to a blend of Besi bari lubang jarum, retak arong, and retak kaki lipan when looking at all features. It has clear contrasting sections of very tiny proportions running the entire length, and I do see within the sections, being the base, middle and tip that carry the Alif feature or motif, a horizontal and vertical layering of differential overlapping metals, like scales if I had to describe it, whilst the sections between are all vertically running differential metals mostly. Does this suggest the mechanical layering was by design intended to open in these particular three places during the manufacture process? On the original blade discussed, the "little wandering brook" seems very purposeful in that it opens a on the medial ridge, a fraction above inner triangle, through to just short of the blades tip. The reverse as noted has nil such features. The blade design leads me to ask, does the blade itself with the triple "v"s represent an inverted "V", Gunungan, or "8" in Arabic? Attached Images

8th November 2023, 07:44 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Gavin, would a close-up of the "alif" pamor be possible?

14th November 2023, 08:46 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

17th November 2023, 12:17 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Thank you very much Gavin, I do appreciate you providing both your text and the image, however, I am mystified. Perhaps you might be able to give us a little bit of the back story on how, where or who you sourced this information from? I am familiar with the alif, & also the problems surrounding that letter ( & other letters). In the context of bladed weaponry, the word pamor indicates metal that has been mixed, your image in post 18 is a mark, it is not pamor. What I believe I can see in your post 18 image is an incision, it might be a flaw, it might be something else, but it is not any sort of pamor motif. The line in the center of the first blade you posted is a cold shut, a flaw, it is not pamor. Where pamor alif --- or more correctly in BI & Malay, "alip" --- does occur, it has the form of one of the ways in which the letter alif can be written, and it is normally an inclusion in a more dominant pamor, usually an intended inclusion, but it can occur accidentally.The main thing is, it is a part of the more dominant pamor from which it emerges. Sometimes a bad flaw will be filled with a strip of pamor & the seller will name it as "pamor alip" , I suppose that's OK if he can convince the buyer that it was all intentional. The welding flaw that is usually described as "anak sungai" in some Malay keris usually occurs in blades with pamor miring where the construction of the pamor requires a weld that joins two bars of manipulated material, when this welded joint fails and a cold shut results in the finished work, that cold shut gets named as "anak sungai". An "anak sungai" can occur in any blade where the material has been folded and welded, but wherever it does occur it is just a polite name for a cold shut in the welding work. The term "anak sungai" means a small tributary of a larger stream, and that cold shut running down the middle of the blade looks just like a little wandering creek or brook. In your photos I can see what could be referred to as an anak sungai in the first blade, but since this blade has no pamor, we cannot call it "pamor anak sungai". In the other blades I also cannot see any pamor, nor can I see any marks that resemble either an alip or an anak sungai. In respect of the use of the English word "random" in reference to a pamor motif. When we consider a blade to have a "random" pamor motif, it is a pamor that has been made by repeated folding & welding but without any manipulation, ie, a pure mlumah pamor, wos (beras) wutah or ngulit semangko. In Javanese we call this random pattern a "tiban" pamor motif; the word "tiban" means something that has come down or fallen, in the case of a tiban pamor motif, that pamor motif has come down from above, ie from the hand of God, it is not an intended pamor motif created by the maker.

20th November 2023, 08:25 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Thank you Gavin, I believe I now understand much that previously was not clear to me. Malaysian sources? We are using very different understandings & value systems, when this happens it is a bit like a Frenchman, thinking & speaking in French, conversing about Turkey with somebody from Hong Kong who is thinking & speaking in Cantonese. I probably have nothing of value to contribute further.