Tessake, Dussage, Sinclair Saber for comment

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 05:03 AM

Interesting sword. Clearly the terms schiavona and basket hilt are being used in analogy,and the terms 'Sinclair' and 'dussage '(tessak, dussack) are typically synonymous for similar forms of North European basket hilted swords with understandably wide variations. This North European sword with basket type hilt is of 16th-17th c. type which is generally held as the likely influence on the schiavona and the English basket hilt, later the Highland basket hilt (known in period as the 'Irish hilt').

A great reference for sword classifications is "European Weapons and Armor" by Ewart Oakeshott, 1980. The focus is on hilt forms as it is noted blade forms, as agreed by AVB Norman, these are of remarkable variation, and often interchanged not only in original mounting, but in working life of the sword.

Precise classifications for many sword forms are often speculative as there are as noted, often different terms for the same type sword, then the complications of later applied 'collectors terms', of which 'Sinclair saber' is one, and actually a misnomer at that.

werecow · 3rd November 2023, 01:40 PM

You may also want to google for "Styrian basket-hilted sword" as there are some very similar swords listed under that heading, e.g.. Though I don't know whether that term is correct for the type.

Would it be possible to add a picture of the whole sword, including the blade?

fernando · 3rd November 2023, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

... Would it be possible to add a picture of the whole sword, including the blade?

Oh ... yes; it is a must.

SwordLover79 · 3rd November 2023, 04:13 PM

I struggle to upload images...thoguthb I uploaded full views originally!

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 06:27 PM

While Styria was the location of several centers for sword production it was a kind of 'buffer' production region between Northern Italy and South Germany. Though it produced many weapons for European supply, I am not personally familiar with that term used as an identifier but more commonly known by the areas used, mostly Eastern Europe and Balkans. As always, I am sure there are exceptions in catalogs and some references. It does not seem the compendiums of makers marks etc. list Styrian that I can recall offhand.

Many went into Black Sea regions as well and many Caucasian weapons have Styrian blades. As Styria often used the 'sickle' marks of North Italy, this may have been the conduit which brought the marks into the Caucasian sphere, there known as 'gurda'.

Images of the entire sword are a must, as often classification relies in degree on the type of blade....while 'Sinclair's are deemed sabers, various European hilts thought of in that category actually had straight blades.It is often a maddening business, as often straight blade swords are deemed 'sabers' (usually 18th into 19th c); in old fashioned parlance any straight sword was deemed a 'broadsword' while technically, if single edged it is a 'backsword'.

A short heavy bladed saber, if used on vessels was called a cutlass. When the sailors took them ashore to hack through vegetation, they were called a 'machete'. In military use such short blade weapons were termed 'hangers' (Scottish 'whingers'). The short heavy bladed sabers used in Spains colonies are termed 'espada ancha' by modern collectors, but in period they were only known as 'machete'. However many logs and records from vessels might term them cutlasses.

The point is.....neat classification with sword forms is daunting, perhaps often not possible, so it becomes a matter of detail and qualification in description.

SwordLover79 · 3rd November 2023, 07:01 PM

I have tried several times to upload images of the entire sword - here they are again.

awdaniec666 · 3rd November 2023, 07:59 PM

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that

Adorable piece.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2023, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that

Adorable piece.

Exactly!!! You can see how the blade makes a difference. A pallasche is yet another European term for a full length heavy straight blade sword.
In Europe however, while the pallasche was a heavy, straight hacking and chopping sword, often a rider wore a saber at his side, and had a straight thrusting sword termed 'tuck' (estoc) under his leg saddle mounted.
In the Rembrandt painting it is hard to determine if this sword under the right leg is a tuck or pallasche, but the intent is to show the manner these were carried.

corrado26 · 4th November 2023, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that

Adorable piece.

After my knowledge a "pallasch" has a streight blade with just one edge and a strong back! The blade in question has two edges what in Germany is called a "Degen". So the sword in question cannot be a Pallasch. In Germany we call such items "Felddegen"

3rd November 2023, 04:13 PM	#4
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I struggle to upload images...thoguthb I uploaded full views originally! Attached Images

3rd November 2023, 07:01 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I have tried several times to upload images of the entire sword - here they are again. Attached Images

3rd November 2023, 05:03 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Interesting sword. Clearly the terms schiavona and basket hilt are being used in analogy,and the terms 'Sinclair' and 'dussage '(tessak, dussack) are typically synonymous for similar forms of North European basket hilted swords with understandably wide variations. This North European sword with basket type hilt is of 16th-17th c. type which is generally held as the likely influence on the schiavona and the English basket hilt, later the Highland basket hilt (known in period as the 'Irish hilt'). A great reference for sword classifications is "European Weapons and Armor" by Ewart Oakeshott, 1980. The focus is on hilt forms as it is noted blade forms, as agreed by AVB Norman, these are of remarkable variation, and often interchanged not only in original mounting, but in working life of the sword. Precise classifications for many sword forms are often speculative as there are as noted, often different terms for the same type sword, then the complications of later applied 'collectors terms', of which 'Sinclair saber' is one, and actually a misnomer at that.

3rd November 2023, 01:40 PM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 477	You may also want to google for "Styrian basket-hilted sword" as there are some very similar swords listed under that heading, e.g.. Though I don't know whether that term is correct for the type. Would it be possible to add a picture of the whole sword, including the blade?

3rd November 2023, 06:27 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	While Styria was the location of several centers for sword production it was a kind of 'buffer' production region between Northern Italy and South Germany. Though it produced many weapons for European supply, I am not personally familiar with that term used as an identifier but more commonly known by the areas used, mostly Eastern Europe and Balkans. As always, I am sure there are exceptions in catalogs and some references. It does not seem the compendiums of makers marks etc. list Styrian that I can recall offhand. Many went into Black Sea regions as well and many Caucasian weapons have Styrian blades. As Styria often used the 'sickle' marks of North Italy, this may have been the conduit which brought the marks into the Caucasian sphere, there known as 'gurda'. Images of the entire sword are a must, as often classification relies in degree on the type of blade....while 'Sinclair's are deemed sabers, various European hilts thought of in that category actually had straight blades.It is often a maddening business, as often straight blade swords are deemed 'sabers' (usually 18th into 19th c); in old fashioned parlance any straight sword was deemed a 'broadsword' while technically, if single edged it is a 'backsword'. A short heavy bladed saber, if used on vessels was called a cutlass. When the sailors took them ashore to hack through vegetation, they were called a 'machete'. In military use such short blade weapons were termed 'hangers' (Scottish 'whingers'). The short heavy bladed sabers used in Spains colonies are termed 'espada ancha' by modern collectors, but in period they were only known as 'machete'. However many logs and records from vessels might term them cutlasses. The point is.....neat classification with sword forms is daunting, perhaps often not possible, so it becomes a matter of detail and qualification in description.

3rd November 2023, 07:59 PM	#7
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 153	In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made". Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that Adorable piece.