1780 heavy Cavalry Officer Sword

Interested Party · 20th October 2023, 03:43 PM

I may have answered part of my own question. This is from the New York Times:
"It is interesting to note the speed with which Lonicera has spread. Though there is some debate, William Kerr, a 19th-century collector for Kew Gardens in London, was probably responsible for honeysuckle’s first recorded appearance outside Asia, in 1806. The plant’s emergence in North America began in earnest in 1862, when George Hall, a physician and plant breeder, introduced a popular and vigorous variety. Japanese honeysuckle made its first dash for freedom in the New World along the banks of the Potomac River in 1882. The blame does not lie with plant collectors alone. Japanese honeysuckle was highly recommended for erosion control, and to add beauty to planting sites well into the 20th century."

Whether, 1806 is a North American centric date, as it is the date I have seen in other sources as introduction to N.A., is still a bit of an open question. Sorry for diving into the minutia.

Jim McDougall · 20th October 2023, 05:05 PM

I.P. actually I did mean to lead things 'down the garden path' (so to speak) but brought up the term to refer to the key words often used in searching resources, which is often futile with terms which are not broadly used or in different context. The 'honeysuckle' term is one used more often in collectors jargon or vernacular and it seems more to the 19th century heavy cavalry patterns, as Robson points out. Another example is the 'gothic' hilts in the 1822 pattern hilts, which of course is a bit disconcerting unless one is familiar with architectural peculiarities.

All minutiae is is important in trying to identify hilt patterns and decoration as these are clues that might lead to proper identification, thank you for this interesting information!

Bryce, trying to think of where I also have seen this pattern hilt.......perhaps Southwick? Neumann? You are far more the authority on these patterns, and Dellar and Robson tacitly avoid the 18th century and earlier in British pattern swords. This is understandable with the inconsistency and broad variations in the swords used in those times, as we can see with the 1788 dilemma.

Bryce · 20th October 2023, 09:15 PM

G'day Guys,

Jim, "The British Cavalry Sword from 1600" is the title of Charles Martyn's book, not the suggested date for this sword. I think a date of 1770-1780 is about right for my sword. Thanks for posting the photos of your swords. That basket hilt has the same style of blade as my sword and if you look closely at the photo, you can see it too has a scarf weld at the ricasso.

IP, not being from Britain I am not sure what plant exactly this refers too, but had always assumed "Honeysuckle" was native to Britain? Is it common honeysuckle Lonicerum periclymenum? I am mainly going on what other authors had mentioned including Charles Martyn.
Cheers,
Bryce

PS Actually looking at the photos again, all three swords have the same style of blade and the scarf weld is also showing on the 3rd sword.

Jim McDougall · 21st October 2023, 02:51 AM

Thanks Bryce,missed that, it was the title.
Interesting on the scarf welds, what was the reason for this? and it seems pretty prevalent.
I got Southwick, ("London Silver Hilted Swords", 2001) and these examples are I think pertinent.

The first in one which corresponds to the lion head dragoon officer I posted.
The next three (black & white) illustrate the 'scrolled' bar designs which seem to have a prevalence with outfitters for officers swords from about 1750s to 1780s including of course those presumed to be contenders for the pattern 1788 heavy cavalry examples. While these are clearly not exact match, they do show the general character of the form.

Most of these scrolled bars seem simple, however yours is far more intricate incorporating baroque floral designs into the half basket pattern with the bars included. It would seem the cutlers were competing using innovative designs. I agree yours would likely be in the 1770s with that 'Adam' type pommel.

I think I have seen a design like this too, but cannot place where it was.

Bryce · 22nd October 2023, 12:39 AM

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2023, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

It is hard to know exactly when this term came into descriptive use toward the hilts of these British swords, and as always Victorian descriptions in observations often brought in colorful romanticized terms. Honeysuckle apparently gained popular attention in those times pertaining to some superstitious beliefs, but the designs using the scrolled designs were already well in use in the second half 18th c. with late baroque styling.

The first use of the term I know of personally was toward the hilt of the M1796 British heavy cavalry officers sword (undress) which also had the pierced 'ladder' design in the upper part of the pierced bowl. The term also referred to the similar hilt design of the heavy cavalry M1821/29 pattern.

It is interesting that the heavy cavalry term was not known or used in the time of these dragoon officers swords we are discussing (1750s-80s) and in 1756 units of 'light' dragoons were created. In 1788, reorganizing of cavalry units was completed and the units of light dragoons (becoming light cavalry and hussars later) and the other units were termed 'dragoon guards' later heavy cavalry.

What I had not realized is that there were no 'heavy cavalry' units in this period 1750-80 as such, so dragoon officers seem to have had pretty much 'carte blanche' in their selection of personal swords, as seen by the examples shown in our discussion.
That is perhaps why the designation of '1788 heavy cavalry officers sword' is such an apocryphal designation.

The lionhead example I posted has similar example in design shown in Southwick (a silver hilt) and noted Dru Drury as cutler.....while mine appears marketed by John Read, a Dublin outfitter, so it seems the designs were not limited to one cutler.

In measuring the blade, it is 38" so in line with the very long blades of 'heavy dragoons' popular in 1760s-70s.
On the blade, there are distinct marking upper part of blade near forte, an F and near it, what remains of a '3'.
Hoping I can find what these might mean.

The scarf welds you noticed are also a distinct curiosity, and I am with you, why would this be done at the join with the tang? There are certain swords in Oman which had longer tangs welded on because they were fitted with longer cylindrical hilts, but that does not seem the issue here. Also, these are remarkably long blades, so clearly not cut down.

Pics are the M1796 heavy cavalry officers sword, and the M1829 heavy cavalry officers sword; both with termed 'honeysuckle hilts'.

Bryce · 22nd October 2023, 12:02 PM

G'day Jim,
I wonder if hilts like mine may have helped inspire whoever came up with the 1796 ladder hilt design?
Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 18th December 2023, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

From Robert Wilkinson-Latham, British makers were doing soft welded tangs well into the 19th century, with patent hilts an iimmediate change of thoughts.

There was a fellow in the U.S. named Pettibone and he submitted a patent re welding soft tangs to his cast steel billet blades. Everything is videos these days and I think Matt Easton's might be worth it but there are articles and discussion. Some claim the ricasso counter polish is to get close to the hilt. My opinion is that is, that obvious, a case of polishing out the welds.

That's a great sword there Bryce!

Cheers
GC

21st October 2023, 02:51 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Thanks Bryce,missed that, it was the title. Interesting on the scarf welds, what was the reason for this? and it seems pretty prevalent. I got Southwick, ("London Silver Hilted Swords", 2001) and these examples are I think pertinent. The first in one which corresponds to the lion head dragoon officer I posted. The next three (black & white) illustrate the 'scrolled' bar designs which seem to have a prevalence with outfitters for officers swords from about 1750s to 1780s including of course those presumed to be contenders for the pattern 1788 heavy cavalry examples. While these are clearly not exact match, they do show the general character of the form. Most of these scrolled bars seem simple, however yours is far more intricate incorporating baroque floral designs into the half basket pattern with the bars included. It would seem the cutlers were competing using innovative designs. I agree yours would likely be in the 1770s with that 'Adam' type pommel. I think I have seen a design like this too, but cannot place where it was. Attached Images

22nd October 2023, 12:02 PM	#7
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 183	G'day Jim, I wonder if hilts like mine may have helped inspire whoever came up with the 1796 ladder hilt design? Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

20th October 2023, 03:43 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 436	I may have answered part of my own question. This is from the New York Times: "It is interesting to note the speed with which Lonicera has spread. Though there is some debate, William Kerr, a 19th-century collector for Kew Gardens in London, was probably responsible for honeysuckle’s first recorded appearance outside Asia, in 1806. The plant’s emergence in North America began in earnest in 1862, when George Hall, a physician and plant breeder, introduced a popular and vigorous variety. Japanese honeysuckle made its first dash for freedom in the New World along the banks of the Potomac River in 1882. The blame does not lie with plant collectors alone. Japanese honeysuckle was highly recommended for erosion control, and to add beauty to planting sites well into the 20th century." Whether, 1806 is a North American centric date, as it is the date I have seen in other sources as introduction to N.A., is still a bit of an open question. Sorry for diving into the minutia.

20th October 2023, 05:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	I.P. actually I did mean to lead things 'down the garden path' (so to speak) but brought up the term to refer to the key words often used in searching resources, which is often futile with terms which are not broadly used or in different context. The 'honeysuckle' term is one used more often in collectors jargon or vernacular and it seems more to the 19th century heavy cavalry patterns, as Robson points out. Another example is the 'gothic' hilts in the 1822 pattern hilts, which of course is a bit disconcerting unless one is familiar with architectural peculiarities. All minutiae is is important in trying to identify hilt patterns and decoration as these are clues that might lead to proper identification, thank you for this interesting information! Bryce, trying to think of where I also have seen this pattern hilt.......perhaps Southwick? Neumann? You are far more the authority on these patterns, and Dellar and Robson tacitly avoid the 18th century and earlier in British pattern swords. This is understandable with the inconsistency and broad variations in the swords used in those times, as we can see with the 1788 dilemma.

20th October 2023, 09:15 PM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 183	G'day Guys, Jim, "The British Cavalry Sword from 1600" is the title of Charles Martyn's book, not the suggested date for this sword. I think a date of 1770-1780 is about right for my sword. Thanks for posting the photos of your swords. That basket hilt has the same style of blade as my sword and if you look closely at the photo, you can see it too has a scarf weld at the ricasso. IP, not being from Britain I am not sure what plant exactly this refers too, but had always assumed "Honeysuckle" was native to Britain? Is it common honeysuckle Lonicerum periclymenum? I am mainly going on what other authors had mentioned including Charles Martyn. Cheers, Bryce PS Actually looking at the photos again, all three swords have the same style of blade and the scarf weld is also showing on the 3rd sword.

22nd October 2023, 12:39 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 183	G'day Jim, Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label? The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld. Cheers, Bryce