1630s English basket hilts

urbanspaceman · 15th October 2023, 06:29 PM

I'm afraid I'm a little confused by your references to photos - other than your indication of the two examples you posted.
It may be that your browser is displaying the images in a different sequence to mine.
Could you perhaps clarify if possible.
What makes it harder is my ignorance of the examples you refer to i.e Basing House and Sandal Castle.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2023, 03:51 PM

I agree, the reference to the photos depicted are a bit confusing, though the 'top' image of the 'very rusty' sword from 'Sandal Castle' which was destroyed in 1646. Apparently this example has a curved blade which is seemingly unusual for a basket hilt, (turcael in Gaelic description).

Blair (1981, from his excellent "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain, from which most of this material is derived), the terminus post quem for this type of basket hilt is set at the 1646 date, however it is well known that these type of hilts was hardly 'old fashioned' by mid 17th century. Hilts of these types while having subtle variations were of fundamentally similar construction much earlier, and dating is somewhat difficult as they were in use over such an extended period.
The Sandal Castle sword is held at Wakefield Museum, the Basing House example is lost, having been stolen from its place of holding.

These early hilt types were known by the terms 'Irish, close or basket' it seems rather interchangeably. Blair specifies that the first recorded use of the 'basket hilt' term was in Shakespeare (Henry IV, Part II, 1597). The 'Irish' term it is specifically noted had nothing to do with these basket hilts being used in Ireland or produced there, but was more a collective term referring to 'Gaelic', if I have understood correctly.

Returning to the curved blade on the Sandal example, this is an interesting aside;
On p.241, footnote #34, it is noted there are references in 1586 to semetaries (scimitars?) or Turky swordes in inventories. The comparison of course suggests turky= curved.
Further, the Cutlers Co. and others were supplying swords with Turkey blades for City Bands in 1642, while in 1622 Francis Markham wrote that "the blade of a musketeers BASKET HILTED sword should be broad, strong and somewhat massie(sic) of which the Turkie or Bilboe are the best. '

We know bilbo was an English term for the highly regarded straight blades of Spain, coming out of the port of Bilboe in the north......and Turkey of course seems to refer to 'curved'.

These references suggest that the hilt form of the Sandal sword (shown in previous post) may well be the form delivered by Stone in 1631, as the basic hilt structure had been in use, and clearly delivered in number in 1622 by the Cutlers Co.
As the form had been in use (in some variation, but fundamentally the same) as early as 1614, 1622 and these forms remained in use well into the century, it seems highly probable that Stones examples were of this type.
Who assembled these and where is unclear, but possibly in the Hounslow compound where shops were being situated post 1629.

Triarii · 16th October 2023, 04:19 PM

Apologies - the one with the pale background and cord wrapped grip.

The Sandal Castle example (the rusty and bent one in my post - the museum confirmed it is bent as it appears curved in the commonly used photo) was excavated in 1989 and is held by Wakefield Museum. The castle was battered into submission in 1646 (to the extent that the defenders had to dig a trench across the remains of the keep so they could move about) during the English Civil War.

Basing House was stormed by the parliamentarians in Oct 1645 and the basket hilt was found during excavations there in 1971. It's apparently now missing. It's pretty much the same as the one I have.

Lee · 16th October 2023, 04:53 PM

The second hilt in Triarii's post above brought to mind this previously discussed basket hilt sword attributed to be of English origin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25974

urbanspaceman · 17th October 2023, 02:14 PM

Thank-you Lee, this is good stuff.

dralin23 · 17th October 2023, 03:06 PM

I also have a beautiful motuary sword in my collection, here are some pictures of it. It was housed in an old armory for many years, which is why it is completely covered in a dark patina.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2023, 05:35 PM

dralin,outstanding example of a 'mortuary' !! and all the better retaining that lovely patina! These swords regarded as 'half basket' were intriguing developments in these types close hilts evolving contemporary to the forms of full baskets. While we have discussed the terms for full basket hilts as 'Irish' "close' or 'basket hilt' for these, I wonder what term or if any of these were applied in vernacular of the time for these 'mortuaries'.
The 'mortuary' term is of course a Victorian 'collectors' term presuming the facial devices were 'deaths head' of Charles I (d.1649) but obviously misapplied as these hilts preceded that event by at least 10 years, and the motif was popular on various sword hilts.

Lee, that was an amazing thread from several years ago, and brings to mind an interesting aspect of the basket hilt conundrum, that of the Italian 'schiavona'. I note that these were not exclusive to Venice, but somewhat widely used throughout the Italian states.

The question was posed whether or not the schiavona was used or known in Great Britain, and of course with that, wondering if these may have been the influence for the Highland basket hilt. Naturally that theory has been long defeated as structurally the hilts are quite different, except obviously their closed nature.

However, when considering influences it is difficult to determine if some degree or notion of likenesses might have come into the process of development. We know that the Scots were noted as being ready mercenary forces, and that they had served in various European theaters and campaigns which certainly provided exposure to various weapon forms which they brought back.

While the 'basket' form hilt had been well developed in North Europe on the dusagge and so called 'Sinclair' types and is generally regarded as the key influence for the Highland basket hilt, it is clear that these types of close hilt were already well known in England.

The evolution of the well known trellis type basket of the schiavona seems to be contemporary with the evolution of these baskets in Europe and England if not perhaps slightly later.

Whether the schiavona was ever used in its developed form in Scotland or Great Britain is a good question, and as far as I have known, like many weapon forms, there was certainly incidental presence. In what I have learned of the famed 'Border Reivers' of North England and Scottish border regions, the schiavona was among the wide range of weaponry in use by them.

In Scotland, the fabled myth of ANDREA FERARA of course pertains to the Italian (Belluno) swordsmith of the 16th century, who with his brother indeed had contracts for blades with Scotland which evolved into the perplexing mystery of these ubiquitous signed blades which spanned over centuries.

Prince Charlie, Charles Edward Stuart, was born in Rome in 1720, with of course the distinct connection of the Catholic monarchy of the Stuarts to the Papacy.

These factors all suggest that the schiavona was certainly known in Great Britain, but likely had only minor influence on the developing basket hilts there in later periods, and again probably only incidental.

While off course a bit as to the original question, this pertains to the types of basket hilts either evolving or in place c. 1631, so salient to a degree.

dralin23 · 19th October 2023, 05:02 PM

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

15th October 2023, 06:29 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	More baskets I'm afraid I'm a little confused by your references to photos - other than your indication of the two examples you posted. It may be that your browser is displaying the images in a different sequence to mine. Could you perhaps clarify if possible. What makes it harder is my ignorance of the examples you refer to i.e Basing House and Sandal Castle.

17th October 2023, 02:14 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	archive reference Thank-you Lee, this is good stuff.

17th October 2023, 03:06 PM	#6
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	an other mortuary sword I also have a beautiful motuary sword in my collection, here are some pictures of it. It was housed in an old armory for many years, which is why it is completely covered in a dark patina. Attached Images

17th October 2023, 05:35 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,926	Schiavona and influence on British or Scottish basket hilts dralin,outstanding example of a 'mortuary' !! and all the better retaining that lovely patina! These swords regarded as 'half basket' were intriguing developments in these types close hilts evolving contemporary to the forms of full baskets. While we have discussed the terms for full basket hilts as 'Irish' "close' or 'basket hilt' for these, I wonder what term or if any of these were applied in vernacular of the time for these 'mortuaries'. The 'mortuary' term is of course a Victorian 'collectors' term presuming the facial devices were 'deaths head' of Charles I (d.1649) but obviously misapplied as these hilts preceded that event by at least 10 years, and the motif was popular on various sword hilts. Lee, that was an amazing thread from several years ago, and brings to mind an interesting aspect of the basket hilt conundrum, that of the Italian 'schiavona'. I note that these were not exclusive to Venice, but somewhat widely used throughout the Italian states. The question was posed whether or not the schiavona was used or known in Great Britain, and of course with that, wondering if these may have been the influence for the Highland basket hilt. Naturally that theory has been long defeated as structurally the hilts are quite different, except obviously their closed nature. However, when considering influences it is difficult to determine if some degree or notion of likenesses might have come into the process of development. We know that the Scots were noted as being ready mercenary forces, and that they had served in various European theaters and campaigns which certainly provided exposure to various weapon forms which they brought back. While the 'basket' form hilt had been well developed in North Europe on the dusagge and so called 'Sinclair' types and is generally regarded as the key influence for the Highland basket hilt, it is clear that these types of close hilt were already well known in England. The evolution of the well known trellis type basket of the schiavona seems to be contemporary with the evolution of these baskets in Europe and England if not perhaps slightly later. Whether the schiavona was ever used in its developed form in Scotland or Great Britain is a good question, and as far as I have known, like many weapon forms, there was certainly incidental presence. In what I have learned of the famed 'Border Reivers' of North England and Scottish border regions, the schiavona was among the wide range of weaponry in use by them. In Scotland, the fabled myth of ANDREA FERARA of course pertains to the Italian (Belluno) swordsmith of the 16th century, who with his brother indeed had contracts for blades with Scotland which evolved into the perplexing mystery of these ubiquitous signed blades which spanned over centuries. Prince Charlie, Charles Edward Stuart, was born in Rome in 1720, with of course the distinct connection of the Catholic monarchy of the Stuarts to the Papacy. These factors all suggest that the schiavona was certainly known in Great Britain, but likely had only minor influence on the developing basket hilts there in later periods, and again probably only incidental. While off course a bit as to the original question, this pertains to the types of basket hilts either evolving or in place c. 1631, so salient to a degree.

16th October 2023, 03:51 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,926	I agree, the reference to the photos depicted are a bit confusing, though the 'top' image of the 'very rusty' sword from 'Sandal Castle' which was destroyed in 1646. Apparently this example has a curved blade which is seemingly unusual for a basket hilt, (turcael in Gaelic description). Blair (1981, from his excellent "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain, from which most of this material is derived), the terminus post quem for this type of basket hilt is set at the 1646 date, however it is well known that these type of hilts was hardly 'old fashioned' by mid 17th century. Hilts of these types while having subtle variations were of fundamentally similar construction much earlier, and dating is somewhat difficult as they were in use over such an extended period. The Sandal Castle sword is held at Wakefield Museum, the Basing House example is lost, having been stolen from its place of holding. These early hilt types were known by the terms 'Irish, close or basket' it seems rather interchangeably. Blair specifies that the first recorded use of the 'basket hilt' term was in Shakespeare (Henry IV, Part II, 1597). The 'Irish' term it is specifically noted had nothing to do with these basket hilts being used in Ireland or produced there, but was more a collective term referring to 'Gaelic', if I have understood correctly. Returning to the curved blade on the Sandal example, this is an interesting aside; On p.241, footnote #34, it is noted there are references in 1586 to semetaries (scimitars?) or Turky swordes in inventories. The comparison of course suggests turky= curved. Further, the Cutlers Co. and others were supplying swords with Turkey blades for City Bands in 1642, while in 1622 Francis Markham wrote that "the blade of a musketeers BASKET HILTED sword should be broad, strong and somewhat massie(sic) of which the Turkie or Bilboe are the best. ' We know bilbo was an English term for the highly regarded straight blades of Spain, coming out of the port of Bilboe in the north......and Turkey of course seems to refer to 'curved'. These references suggest that the hilt form of the Sandal sword (shown in previous post) may well be the form delivered by Stone in 1631, as the basic hilt structure had been in use, and clearly delivered in number in 1622 by the Cutlers Co. As the form had been in use (in some variation, but fundamentally the same) as early as 1614, 1622 and these forms remained in use well into the century, it seems highly probable that Stones examples were of this type. Who assembled these and where is unclear, but possibly in the Hounslow compound where shops were being situated post 1629.

16th October 2023, 04:19 PM	#3
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 111	Apologies - the one with the pale background and cord wrapped grip. The Sandal Castle example (the rusty and bent one in my post - the museum confirmed it is bent as it appears curved in the commonly used photo) was excavated in 1989 and is held by Wakefield Museum. The castle was battered into submission in 1646 (to the extent that the defenders had to dig a trench across the remains of the keep so they could move about) during the English Civil War. Basing House was stormed by the parliamentarians in Oct 1645 and the basket hilt was found during excavations there in 1971. It's apparently now missing. It's pretty much the same as the one I have.

16th October 2023, 04:53 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 911	The second hilt in Triarii's post above brought to mind this previously discussed basket hilt sword attributed to be of English origin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25974

19th October 2023, 05:02 PM	#8
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hello jim, Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet. In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king. In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.