Tunisian or Libyan berber sword with scabbard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks for your thoughts Jim!

Of course, my knowledge of this area of the world is quite limited, and I'm entirely going by geographical proximity and superficial similarity (and even then, when squinting). Some of these pommels resemble the Jineta shape much more than others, but all of them also admittedly have significant differences in shape (being flat, much more triangular, lobed, and frankly looking a bit penile in shape ), so there is also plenty of cause for skepticism and caution. Still, what similarity there is seemed interesting enough to warrant mentioning.

This may be a long shot given that so little is known about these, but are there any books or papers that deal with pre-19th century swords associated with the Berber tribes of north west Africa that I could check out to see if I might find any more robust connections to other hilt types?

Im sure there is notable anthropological literature on the tribes of the Berber confederation, but I rather doubt any specific attention to peculiarities of weaponry would be likely. While a great deal of attention is given to the social and cultural characteristics, seldom is attention applied to weapons, so all we can do is speculate much as you have done, quite effectively I must say.
Offhand I can recall some works by Carleton Coons (if memory serves) on Berber tribes of the Rif; and Nicolsen wrote extensively on the Tuaregs in which there were actually general notes on weapons.

While the Zeneta tribes removed to the Maghrabi areas during the 16th c. it seems of course that there would be residual contact with Tunisia etc. The cross diffusion with Saharan trade routes that existed from Tunisian areas from these early times into the 19th century of course confounds any sort of finite classification. It does seem as noted, the general consensus seems to hold to the Tunisian assessment.

The French blades moved broadly across the Sahara, and seem to occur often in the distinct sabers of the Manding in Mali as well as in many 'aljinaur' (=curved) tuareg style hilt takoubas.

I'll have to look further, consider my curiosity totally piqued!

[werecow]

It might also be worth noting a response from the seller, when I asked him about the scabbard and the origin of the sword:

Indeed, most often, it is said to be from Tunisia but I have never read a good explanation about that. The fact is in the past I found an old picture in a book (I can't remember which one but I am pretty sure the picture can be found online) that show a man selling arms in Tripoli at the late 19th century. And some of these swords were in the inventory. Also, the scabbard, is really like an Algerian work ; similar in construction to the sheath of the kodmi (knife from Bou Saadi). So, even if it is usually said to be from Tunisia, we can assume it could have been encountered from Algeria to Libya.

Note that the picture he's referring to is no doubt the one shown in one of the threads I've listed at the top of the page.

But I mention it mainly because I find his comment on the scabbard work resembling Algerian work interesting but I have no familiarity with kodmi knives, and I can't really find a lot of images of the scabbards that I can connect to what he's talking about, so I can't confirm (although it sounds plausible enough on the face of it given that they are all neighboring countries and Tunisia is relatively narrow).

Does anyone have an example of picture of a scabbard on a kodmi knife that demonstrates what he's talking about? The closest thing I could find is the one attached.

[kronckew]

As you indicate scabbard photos are rare, here is My Khodmi, to show its scabbard - someone added a sewing thimble as a chape.
The spine making on the french blade does seem to start with the "K" of Klingenthal. The beginning "Klin" is a bit worn. I've added another more legible version from another sabre.

[werecow]

Ah, right, I don't know why I thought that was spelled with a C.

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to tbh. To me they look quite different but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by werecow

...

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to, tbh. To me, they look quite different, but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

I'm not sure what the Bou Saadi khodmi ref was either
Hopefully someone can shed some light on it. None of the khodmi knife scabbards we've seen in this thread remind me of the sabre scabbard in the earlier post.
Probably we shouldn't let it sidetrack us further without more info to relate them. I like that sabre and scabbard, it has a primitive bedouin look to it. I wonder if the colourful cloth/string knotwork on the scabbard is camel hair.

[werecow]

This sword was auctioned off today, so I suppose I can add it here now.

[werecow]

And might as well add the remaining two pics.

[TVV]

Thank you for sharing werecow. The silver casing is certainly nice, but I am more intrigued by the blade - looks well worn and potentially quite old.