Bali Keris Stone Question

[David]

This site does indeed have very useful information, but i i am not sure that the original question has been answered.
We know that red is on of the three main colours used for keris ornamentation, but the question specifically mentions STAR rubies. While i have seen red rubies (as well as other red stones, glass and pastes) used in old Bali dress, i am not sure if i have ever seen STAR ruby used in old dress. Does anyone have any examples to show?

[A. G. Maisey]

There would be no differentiation between any red coloured stone, star rubies are still red, so are garnets, agates, spinels, glass & plastic, the choice would be made upon availability of stones, personal preference & budget.

There would be absolutely no reason not to use a star ruby, if one was available, if the person concerned wanted it, & the money was available.

Colour is the dominant criterion.

There is a black stone that in Bali is called "Black Star" & "Black Star Sapphire", it is aluminium oxide, and quite cheap, this stone is sometimes used in keris dress & other places where a black stone is required.

I have not seen a red star sapphire used specifically in keris dress, but there are many things that do exist that I have not seen.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There would be no differentiation between any red coloured stone, star rubies are still red, so are garnets, agates, spinels, glass & plastic, the choice would be made upon availability of stones, personal preference & budget.

There would be absolutely no reason not to use a star ruby, if one was available, if the person concerned wanted it, & the money was available.

Colour is the dominant criterion.

There is a black stone that in Bali is called "Black Star" & "Black Star Sapphire", it is aluminium oxide, and quite cheap, this stone is sometimes used in keris dress & other places where a black stone is required.

I have not seen a red star sapphire used specifically in keris dress, but there are many things that do exist that I have not seen.

Yes, i certainly understand that a star ruby would be perfectly legitimate in terms of the colour preferences within the Balinese culture. But José's question was not whether a star ruby would be acceptable, but rather if "the Balinese ever used star rubies" in their keris dress. Since blue is not considered to be traditionally acceptable i am focussing this question towards the star ruby. This is why i am encouraging anyone who has an old example to post it so that we can say one way or the other.

[A. G. Maisey]

The Black Star Sapphire is black, it is a star-type stone, showing the same asterism as any "star" stone. There is no prohibition on gemstones that display asterism.

Blue is a perfectly acceptable colour, it is the colour of Sambhu, the god of the north-east (& other things).

We do not need to find an actual example of the use of a star ruby, & if an example does exist it tells us nothing except that somebody had sufficient money to pay for it.

The reality is that Jose's question taken in a literal sense cannot ever be answered because there have been millions of Balinese keris with millions & millions of different forms of ornamentation, & we cannot access every Balinese keris that ever existed.

But one thing is certain:- use of a star ruby in Balinese symbolic ornamentation is perfectly acceptable & could be used in keris ornamentation.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The reality is that Jose's question taken in a literal sense cannot ever be answered because there have been millions of Balinese keris with millions & millions of different forms of ornamentation, & we cannot access every Balinese keris that ever existed.

Well, we can answer the question in the affirmative if one can be found. What we cannot say is that the star ruby was never used if indeed we cannot find one.
José has not explained why he is asking this question, so i cannot presume to know if we do or do not need to find an example to satisfy his question.

[A. G. Maisey]

Maybe.

What we know about Balinese colour symbolism is that it is the colour alone that dictates choice of material for symbolic ornamentation.

We also know that sapphires & rubies, amongst many other materials, have been used by the Balinese people for symbolic ornamentation.

We know that the occurrence of high value gemstones in Balinese keris ornamentation is relatively rare.

We know that rubies which display asterism, ie, star rubies, are rare.

Star rubies are red, just like normal rubies, but they also display asterism.

Whilst it is true that we would need an actual example of a Balinese keris that used one or more star rubies in its ornamentation, in order to be able to know with certainty that star rubies were used in Balinese keris ornamentation, I rather think that we might wait a very long time to find such an example.

On the other hand, the weight of known facts that relate to Balinese symbolic colour ornamentation indicates that given the population of Balinese keris over time, it might be considered to be rather unusual if somebody, at some time, did not have a Balinese keris that used a star ruby in its ornamentation.

However, be all that as it may, I read Jose's question as if it had been framed in colloquial fashion, where the word "ever" is not necessarily intended to mean something like "from the beginning of time".

[David]

I don't disagree with you Alan. My only point is that José obviously asked the question for a reason and i am fairly certain that he is quite aware that both red and blue stones are perfectly acceptable colours for Balinese keris dress. So he is asking specifically about STAR gems for some reason. Perhaps he will share that reason with us.