Tunisian or Libyan berber sword with scabbard

[werecow]

I bought myself some swords for my birthday (I shouldn't be spending money atm but there are SWORDS on the INTERNET! ), one of which was this Tunisian or nearby saber with a French blade and a nice scabbard (maybe from one of you? ). I thought I'd add it here since the swords themselves and particularly the scabbards seem rather rare and information seems scarce. I've tried to take pictures of both the decorative elements and some shots that might show a bit of the details of construction.

Some threads I found with swords of this type:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7429
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13911
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18663
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22054
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28537

Combination of my pics and the sellers because my camera sucks.

It occurred to me that, while the grips on these look rather phallic as a whole, given the North African provenance, the shape of the pommel might also have some connection to those of Jineta/Boabdil swords:



Has anyone else made this connection? Or am I just seeing things?

[werecow]

A few more photos. Inscription on the spine is a little hard to read but looks like Clingenthal.

Length in scabbard 98.5cm, length outside scabbard 97.5cm, hilt length 16.5cm. POB approx 19.5 cm from the cross. Difficult to measure the weight using the scales that I have as the sword twists due to the curvature, so I kind of had to suspend the scales across two little tables, but it seems to be around 515 gr outside the scabbard, and the scabbard reads 393 gr. The French blade has a lot of distal taper (from 9mm at the base to 3mm at the end of the fuller) and it feels quite light in spite of the forward POB. Blade width 32mm at the base. Grip is 33mm at the broadest point, 21mm across. Cross is 91mm wide.

[werecow]

A few more shots of the grip and cross. The pommel has a very slight twist, but whether this is just something that just happened over time or intentional is hard to say (probably just wear but I mention it anyway because it reminded me of Roland Warzecha's ideas about viking era sword pommels, as well as the twist to the pommel segments on the ethiopian gurade and shotel swords I've handled).

[TVV]

Congratulations on your acquisition. This is as nice as these sabers get, considering that yours also has the baldric preserved, which I have not seen before.

You might be on to something when it comes to comparing the pommel on these Tunisian swords and jinetas. I have one of these swords as well and the hilt is also wobbly, so it appears that this is a common feature of the hilt construction.

I love how these swords are a combination of imported European blades and very rustic North African fittings. The cloth in the scabbard seem looks like a local interpretation of Ottoman spiral stitching.

There is almost nothing known about these swords. They seem to have been confined to a small region in Tunisia and Tripoli and there is almost no literature on them, except Tirri, who lumps them with takoubas and a catalogue of Islamic arms in the Royal Armories which shows one with a straight, one sided blade. They are not common compared to other North African swords such as nimchas and flyssas, so getting to se more of them is always appreciated - thank you for sharing.

[werecow]

Yes they appear quite enigmatic. One of very few swords that does not even seem to have its own collector's term besides "Tunisian berber sword". An English to Amazigh translator says the word for sword is ajenwi or ajnwi, so maybe in keeping with tradition that would be a good term?

Thanks for adding your own example! Very similar blades on these.

I like the decorative stitching very much and indeed the baldric is a large part of why I decided to go for this one. The leather does look like it is in danger of drying out (a small 1cm2 piece of it unfortunately came off in transit), so if anyone has any suggestions as to how to best preserve it I am all ears.

If not for the baldric and scabbard, I might have waited around for a silver hilted one (I know of one that I'd love to add here but I'll wait until the auction is over). I wonder if someone with expertise in silver work could tell us more about what tribe might have produced them?

It's remarkably light with that horn hilt. I thought maybe the grip would look clunky from the pictures, but in real life it actually looks quite modest and elegant.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by werecow

The leather does look like it is in danger of drying out (a small 1cm2 piece of it unfortunately came off in transit), so if anyone has any suggestions as to how to best preserve it I am all ears.

Leather Therapy used for saddles and tack by equestrians.
Do a search.

[werecow]

Alright, will check that out, thanks.

Another question I had about these; on mine the protrusions from the guard towards the hand are rather subtle so they don't get in the way, but on TVV's example and some others they seem more substantial:



Does that get in the way of the hand at all when using a hammer grip? I'm wondering this shape it is a way of encouraging a saber grip, with the thumb and index finger nestled in the curves of the guard.

[werecow]

Actually, I think I had it the wrong way around; holding it again now, it feels wrong with saber grip (very insecure and oddly balanced for it) and it is actually when using the hammer grip that my fingers and the fleshy part between thumb and index finger nestle comfortably in those inner curves.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I bought myself some swords for my birthday (I shouldn't be spending money atm but there are SWORDS on the INTERNET! ), one of which was this Tunisian or nearby saber with a French blade and a nice scabbard (maybe from one of you? ). I thought I'd add it here since the swords themselves and particularly the scabbards seem rather rare and information seems scarce. I've tried to take pictures of both the decorative elements and some shots that might show a bit of the details of construction.

Some threads I found with swords of this type:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7429
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13911
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18663
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22054
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28537

Combination of my pics and the sellers because my camera sucks.

It occurred to me that, while the grips on these look rather phallic as a whole, given the North African provenance, the shape of the pommel might also have some connection to those of Jineta/Boabdil swords:



Has anyone else made this connection? Or am I just seeing things?

" ...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody else has thought".
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy (1893-1986)

For more years that I can say, while observing these swords with this distinctive and apparently unique wood hilt style , nobody (including myself) has made this connection to the historic Nasrid (jineta) forms, at least that I can recall. It has always seemed these were deemed Tunisian, but quite frankly most of them came up amidst takouba and kaskara study, so were not focused on other than North African anomalies.

This observation is really well placed, and exciting to look further into the history of these swords, which have as noted, virtually no literature or published research, and only have cursory presence in various references.

These seem most likely reflecting the Zenata Berber traditions in a revival or commemorative sense, and these Berber tribes were situated in the Tunisian/Tripolitania/Libya regions in the Granadan Emirate period. After the Reconquista in the 15th century they moved westward into Algeria and Morocco.

With the French cavalry blade, the Saharan potential is clear, but these blades were pretty ubiquitous with French colonial presence, so its hard to use that as a classifying feature.

The anachronistic influences of weapons from Europe and the Iberian Peninsula on native weapon forms in North Africa are many and intriguing, and seeing this instance added to the list is great!

[werecow]

Thanks for your thoughts Jim!

Of course, my knowledge of this area of the world is quite limited, and I'm entirely going by geographical proximity and superficial similarity (and even then, when squinting). Some of these pommels resemble the Jineta shape much more than others, but all of them also admittedly have significant differences in shape (being flat, much more triangular, lobed, and frankly looking a bit penile in shape ), so there is also plenty of cause for skepticism and caution. Still, what similarity there is seemed interesting enough to warrant mentioning.

This may be a long shot given that so little is known about these, but are there any books or papers that deal with pre-19th century swords associated with the Berber tribes of north west Africa that I could check out to see if I might find any more robust connections to other hilt types?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks for your thoughts Jim!

Of course, my knowledge of this area of the world is quite limited, and I'm entirely going by geographical proximity and superficial similarity (and even then, when squinting). Some of these pommels resemble the Jineta shape much more than others, but all of them also admittedly have significant differences in shape (being flat, much more triangular, lobed, and frankly looking a bit penile in shape ), so there is also plenty of cause for skepticism and caution. Still, what similarity there is seemed interesting enough to warrant mentioning.

This may be a long shot given that so little is known about these, but are there any books or papers that deal with pre-19th century swords associated with the Berber tribes of north west Africa that I could check out to see if I might find any more robust connections to other hilt types?

Im sure there is notable anthropological literature on the tribes of the Berber confederation, but I rather doubt any specific attention to peculiarities of weaponry would be likely. While a great deal of attention is given to the social and cultural characteristics, seldom is attention applied to weapons, so all we can do is speculate much as you have done, quite effectively I must say.
Offhand I can recall some works by Carleton Coons (if memory serves) on Berber tribes of the Rif; and Nicolsen wrote extensively on the Tuaregs in which there were actually general notes on weapons.

While the Zeneta tribes removed to the Maghrabi areas during the 16th c. it seems of course that there would be residual contact with Tunisia etc. The cross diffusion with Saharan trade routes that existed from Tunisian areas from these early times into the 19th century of course confounds any sort of finite classification. It does seem as noted, the general consensus seems to hold to the Tunisian assessment.

The French blades moved broadly across the Sahara, and seem to occur often in the distinct sabers of the Manding in Mali as well as in many 'aljinaur' (=curved) tuareg style hilt takoubas.

I'll have to look further, consider my curiosity totally piqued!

[werecow]

It might also be worth noting a response from the seller, when I asked him about the scabbard and the origin of the sword:

Indeed, most often, it is said to be from Tunisia but I have never read a good explanation about that. The fact is in the past I found an old picture in a book (I can't remember which one but I am pretty sure the picture can be found online) that show a man selling arms in Tripoli at the late 19th century. And some of these swords were in the inventory. Also, the scabbard, is really like an Algerian work ; similar in construction to the sheath of the kodmi (knife from Bou Saadi). So, even if it is usually said to be from Tunisia, we can assume it could have been encountered from Algeria to Libya.

Note that the picture he's referring to is no doubt the one shown in one of the threads I've listed at the top of the page.

But I mention it mainly because I find his comment on the scabbard work resembling Algerian work interesting but I have no familiarity with kodmi knives, and I can't really find a lot of images of the scabbards that I can connect to what he's talking about, so I can't confirm (although it sounds plausible enough on the face of it given that they are all neighboring countries and Tunisia is relatively narrow).

Does anyone have an example of picture of a scabbard on a kodmi knife that demonstrates what he's talking about? The closest thing I could find is the one attached.

[kronckew]

As you indicate scabbard photos are rare, here is My Khodmi, to show its scabbard - someone added a sewing thimble as a chape.
The spine making on the french blade does seem to start with the "K" of Klingenthal. The beginning "Klin" is a bit worn. I've added another more legible version from another sabre.

[werecow]

Ah, right, I don't know why I thought that was spelled with a C.

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to tbh. To me they look quite different but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by werecow

...

Thanks for the kodmi scabbard pic. Still not entirely sure what the seller was referring to, tbh. To me, they look quite different, but maybe I'm missing some context or overlooking some details of construction.

I'm not sure what the Bou Saadi khodmi ref was either
Hopefully someone can shed some light on it. None of the khodmi knife scabbards we've seen in this thread remind me of the sabre scabbard in the earlier post.
Probably we shouldn't let it sidetrack us further without more info to relate them. I like that sabre and scabbard, it has a primitive bedouin look to it. I wonder if the colourful cloth/string knotwork on the scabbard is camel hair.

[werecow]

This sword was auctioned off today, so I suppose I can add it here now.

[werecow]

And might as well add the remaining two pics.

[TVV]

Thank you for sharing werecow. The silver casing is certainly nice, but I am more intrigued by the blade - looks well worn and potentially quite old.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by TVV

Thank you for sharing werecow. The silver casing is certainly nice, but I am more intrigued by the blade - looks well worn and potentially quite old.

Yeah, it's an interesting blade. I'm quite curious what the scabbard would've looked like, too.

And I also noticed that on this example the pommel is again slightly twisted. Might be a coincidence of course as it's very slight, but still.

[G. Mansfield]

I just received this khodmi and I think the seller is referring to examples such as this one. However, this is the first time that I have seen this type of sheath with stitching. The more common type is the dyed red leather over wood sheaths, sometimes with brass fittings. The decorative stitching is very similar in the colorful geometrical shapes and patterns to the baldric on your Berber sword werecow.

-Geoffrey

[werecow]

Indeed it is! Nice scabbard, very colorful. Thanks for sharing this example!

[G. Mansfield]

I also acquired the silver Berber sword in discussion. I would like to confirm that the pommel is slightly offset but very tight. One side is more noticeable than the other when looking at it straight on. It seems to be a common occurrence on these swords, and I have seen quite a few with twisted pommels. The blade is also very old, definitely European in origin and 18th century my guess. However, there are no stampings or maker’s mark at least on the blade, the tang has not been checked.

I would like to post more pictures of the two hilt sides as they consist of some interesting iconology. One side, there is a camel under a crescent moon. The reverse, a fish and rooster. A quick google search states that the fish is a protective symbol to ward off the evil eye. The camel is a symbol of wealth and prestige, and the rooster promotes fertility. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on the meaning or symbolism of these motifs?

There are also a few circular stamps on the silver hilt. Though none of these show an entirely clean stamp, I photographed the best preserved one. Could this be a stamp of the maker? City? A seal of the Ottoman regency of Tunis or Tripolitania? I know that it is hard to decipher but any clues could help narrow the mystery. I will try to further look at all the stampings and try to piece the legible parts together.

-Geoffrey

[TVV]

Congratulations, this is a really nice sword and it is nice to see it acquired by someone on the forum, and even nicer of you to share detailed pictures. In his book on edged weapons from Morocco and Algeria Eric Claude shows similar stamps on koummayas, which indicate the place of manufacturing. Since they seem to only exist on silver encased daggers, I suspect they also served as hallmarks for silver content.

[Yvain]

That's a very interesting thread on those intriguing swords!



To me that stamp definitely looks like a Libyan hallmark, you could try posting it on : https://www.facebook.com/groups/1033...413/?ref=share, there is some very knowledgeable people on North-African jewelry.

[werecow]

I'll add this recently sold Tunisian nimcha here (not mine) since it is interesting and has a scabbard with a very similar aesthetic.
Seller's description:

"Nimcha, Tunisia, 19th Century Mounted With An 18th Century European Blade"
Rare and imposing nimcha from the eastern Maghreb. Long and beautiful European blade from the mid-18th century, decorated with a sun and a moon face decorated with stars and foliage. The current assembly is probably from the second half of the 19th century, in Tunisia or Libya. The embossed and engraved decorations of the metal parts are typical of these regions with the floral interlacing and the motifs with four very tapered almond petals. The massive pommel is decorated with a crescent moon and a star recalling the insignia of the Ottoman Empire, still very influential in these regions in the 19th century. The sheath is made up of a wooden core covered with leather sewn into a wide strip of cords of different colors in triangle patterns. The fittings are all in ornate silver-plated brass.

Steel, silver-plated copper, silver-plated brass, bovine horn, wood, brown leather, blue, red and brown rope

Total length 107 cm
Scabbard 92 cm
Length without scabbard 104 cm
Blade 98 cm
Width at forte 3.9 cm
Width of guard 11 cm
Width of pommel 5.8 cm

[TVV]

To me this looks like a sword that was a Berber saber, but which had the original hilt replaced by a nimcha like hilt in more modern times. The fittings that are "embellishing" the scabbard are of brass sheet and to be fair, of pretty low quality. The guard is also quite crude, made of two pieces of brass. It is hard to tell with absolute certainty, but to me this just does not look right and I suspect a much more recent attempt at "enhancing" the sword, rather than a 19th century hybrid.

[kronckew]

I agree with Tvv.


The guard construction is not like any Nimcha I've seen. Indeed, 'rustic'. The embellishments look fairly well-made, tho. Definitely a NLO.
(Nimcha-Like Object) Or as the Auction Houses are fond of saying "in the style of a nimcha".

[werecow]

Fair enough. I don't think I've ever seen a nimcha hilted sword attributed to Tunisia or Libya before so tbh if they do exist I would not know how to tell a real one from a fake.

Of course, the reason for posting it on this thread was primarily the stitching on the scabbard, which shows a stylistic similarity to the berber sword scabbards.

[TVV]

I do not know if I would call it a fake, as that implies an intent to deceive. It may simply be a case of a modern attempt at "restoration".