Strange long rapier

[cel7]

Hi,

I won this cup-hilt rapier at an art and antiques auction this week. It was described as a 19th/20th century example. Judging from the photos of the blade of this rapier, I made an offering on it because the blade seems much older to me. Today I picked it up and finally had the chance to see it in person. Although this type of weapon falls outside my comfort zone, I can only conclude that it is a strange case. The length is the first thing you notice. The total length is 144 centimeters, the length of the blade is 118 centimeters! That's quite long for a rapier. At the very base it is 42mm wide and 7mm thick.
It is decorated with figures and has a fuller of 33 centimeters. The blade is hand forged and there are a few superficial cracks visible. In general the blade is still reasonably sharp. However, the point is round, but it is of course possible that it has been adjusted at some point. So it could have been several centimeters longer.
The cup is also strange. It is hand-forged, the traces of hammering are clearly visible on the inside. It is decorated with chiseled figures. On one side an angel-like figure and an eagle. On the other side something that looks like a coat of arms and an unknown figure. The last two are inlaid with copper wire or something similar, the other two figures still show remnants of the same material under a magnifying glass. It's not really high art, so perhaps this rapier falls under the heading "Munitions grade"!? One of the arms attached to the inside of the cup once came loose and was repaired with a screw and nut. The handle is simple and made of wood. Perhaps it was wrapped with leather or thread in the past.
Who knows what this is? Is it really a 19th century copy or is it somewhat older?

I also posted this rapier on another forum.

[cel7]

and some more photos

[werecow]

I can't comment about the age but the grip seems unusually long for a cup hilt.

[cel7]

Originally Posted by werecow

I can't comment about the age but the grip seems unusually long for a cup hilt.

That's right, 14.5 cm between the crossguard and the pommel. No idea what this should normally be.

[Jim McDougall]

Naturally this example is far from an actual cup hilt rapier, and the date estimated is probably correct. While I would be tempted to consider this as being a theatrical piece, the attempts at detail and the extraordinarily long blade seem atypical for such pieces.

It would be silly to call this a reproduction as it is so far from an actual example that could not have been the intent. The rounded blade tip is of course completely contrary to that of a rapier as these are thrusting weapons.

The stubby quillons are also contrary to cup hilts. The decoration on cup and blade seem approximations of some decoration and motif in degree.

Such as it is, only speculation can estimate the intent of this piece, and as I never wish to denigrate someones weapon, I would optimistically consider the fabrication of traditional weapons sometimes in rural community settings.
Such an instance is with the strange composite assembly of this sword which is likely from Mexican frontier regions sometime in 19th c. using hilt of a cavalry saber, old cut down dragoon blade and briquet hilt.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by cel7

That's right, 14.5 cm between the crossguard and the pommel. No idea what this should normally be.

As I understand it, the Spanish cup hilts often had quite short grips (see below), due to the tendency to stick two fingers over the crossguard IIRC. Not entirely sure outside of Spain, though.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Such an instance is with the strange composite assembly of this sword which is likely from Mexican frontier regions sometime in 19th c. using hilt of a cavalry saber, old cut down dragoon blade and briquet hilt.

When I just started collecting I bought this Spanish 1840 briquet hilt with an absurdly oversized (German?) cavalry saber blade. I had no idea what I was buying of course.

[cel7]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Naturally this example is far from an actual cup hilt rapier, and the date estimated is probably correct. While I would be tempted to consider this as being a theatrical piece, the attempts at detail and the extraordinarily long blade seem atypical for such pieces.

It would be silly to call this a reproduction as it is so far from an actual example that could not have been the intent. The rounded blade tip is of course completely contrary to that of a rapier as these are thrusting weapons.

The stubby quillons are also contrary to cup hilts. The decoration on cup and blade seem approximations of some decoration and motif in degree.

Such as it is, only speculation can estimate the intent of this piece, and as I never wish to denigrate someones weapon, I would optimistically consider the fabrication of traditional weapons sometimes in rural community settings.
Such an instance is with the strange composite assembly of this sword which is likely from Mexican frontier regions sometime in 19th c. using hilt of a cavalry saber, old cut down dragoon blade and briquet hilt.

Thanks Jim for your response! I really looked into rapiers today. Apparently the length is not exceptional and there was a period when this was the standard. Despite that, it remains a strange sword. Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-..._articleVE.pdf

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

When I just started collecting I bought this Spanish 1840 briquet hilt with an absurdly oversized (German?) cavalry saber blade. I had no idea what I was buying of course.

s

Now thats interesting! No telling where these briquet hilts ended up. I always wonder if these strange combinations using them were perhaps ersatz weapons thrown together by local blacksmith/armorers....or other.
They could surely be a collecting genre of their own.
Still, its fun imagining what secrets they might hold.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cel7

Thanks Jim for your response! I really looked into rapiers today. Apparently the length is not exceptional and there was a period when this was the standard. Despite that, it remains a strange sword. Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-..._articleVE.pdf

Absolutely! always up for a mystery.
Actually the blade length is indeed not exceptional , especially with Spanish rapiers, in fact the Spaniards were always ridiculed (cautiously) for their ridiculously long blades and the mysterious fencing techniques. Very interesting and well written study attached.....after 1615 the rapier blade began to give way to heavier arming blades, but hilts remained somewhat similar.
Except the Spanish, who held to their cup hilts and narrow, long blades into the next century.
That is why it is tempting to think of this anomaly as perhaps something Spanish colonial or even in rural regions of Spain.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

s

Now thats interesting! No telling where these briquet hilts ended up. I always wonder if these strange combinations using them were perhaps ersatz weapons thrown together by local blacksmith/armorers....or other.

Not sure... The peen has the same patina as the blade so it may have been an old frankensword. But it does not seem to have been sharpened, so perhaps it was just cobbled together by a previous collector.

I mainly bought it because initially that photo was oriented vertically, and as I was looking at a closeup on my PC it just felt like I kept scrolling down along the blade forever. Basically it looks twice as long as it should be. Obviously it's no bigger than most other cavalry swords but the comparison with the small hilt makes the blade look huge.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cel7

... Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. [url]https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-rapier/Rapieres_articleVE.pdf[/url

cel7, i wonder whether that pdf article is more based on 'true rapiers' (like the picture shown in it) whereas your sword, so wide as it is (42 mm.) falls more onto the cup hilt 'sword' category... so i realize .
As for 'unusual' lengths, call it neighborhood syndrome, the Portuguese also dealt with such long 'off mark' swords, their blades eventually reaching 132 mm. length, as per known examples.

[cel7]

Originally Posted by fernando

cel7, i wonder whether that pdf article is more based on 'true rapiers' (like the picture shown in it) whereas your sword, so wide as it is (42 mm.) falls more onto the cup hilt 'sword' category... so i realize .
As for 'unusual' lengths, call it neighborhood syndrome, the Portuguese also dealt with such long 'off mark' swords, their blades eventually reaching 132 mm. length, as per known examples.

Thanks for your message Fernando! I also noticed that its very wide compared to the ones described in the PDF.

Could it, as Jim McDougall wondered, be Spanish colonial or even from Spanish rural regions?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

Not sure... The peen has the same patina as the blade so it may have been an old frankensword. But it does not seem to have been sharpened, so perhaps it was just cobbled together by a previous collector.

I mainly bought it because initially that photo was oriented vertically, and as I was looking at a closeup on my PC it just felt like I kept scrolling down along the blade forever. Basically it looks twice as long as it should be. Obviously it's no bigger than most other cavalry swords but the comparison with the small hilt makes the blade look huge.

I did realize this was pretty much a standard cavalry blade mid 19thc and resembles those on the M1840 US sabers (many blades were Solingen made). Whatever the case, this 'assembly' (like the psuedo espada ancha I posted) could not have been made for actual use. The M1840 was termed by the men 'the old wristbreaker' because of the long, heavy blade which required unique dexterity to handle properly, and typically there was insufficient training to achieve that.

With that in consideration, these brass briquet hilts barely functioned with any notable effect even with the short hanger blades they normally carried, so trying to handle one of these formidable cavalry blades to any effect would be terribly balanced.

In that light, it seems that these 'creative' anomalies, if legitimately assembled as composite in period, were most likely intended as accoutrements for wear in remote frontier regions, and not for actual combative use. The notion of 'wearing a sword' is a traditional gesture in many situations, much in the manner of those worn in Masonic regalia etc.

It is in this area that I have suggested this possibility with the 'rapier' in discussion. On that note, referring back to the 'frankensword', the M1840 blades were seldom sharpened as they were not typically used, even though 'worn' during the Civil War. In reading through medical histories of that period, it was noted there were hardly ever any wounds from sword cuts, and the only wounds associated with swords were blunt force trauma.

On the length of rapier blades issue, as Fernando has well noted, the blades of both Portuguese and Spanish rapiers often reached almost ridiculous lengths, to the point that royal intervention even tried to regulate the length of them. The one mentioned (132cm or over 51 inches) would have been virtually impossible to wield successfully in the French or Italian schools of fencing, and would have been more aligned with the mysterious Spanish 'destreza' style, which Im sure was equally practiced throughout the Iberian peninsula.
By the beginning of the 18th century, the 'destreza' method, known in the literature as 'the Spanish fight' had waned in the Peninsula, where the move to shorter (thus 'faster') blades and transitional rapiers (and small swords) became popular. However, in the colonies, the destreza continued much as the traditional affection for the cup hilt rapier remained steadfast well through the 18th even into early 19th c....thus my suggestion for this sword as a possibility. The style of the images resembles engraved motif on numerous edged weapons that are Mexican in origin.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cel7

... Could it, as Jim McDougall wondered, be Spanish colonial or even from Spanish rural regions? ...

Oh, i will leave that to Jim .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, i will leave that to Jim .

As I noted earlier, with these kinds of anomalies, one can only speculate and evaluate with similar examples in being composite assemblies. As an eternal optimist I always try to find viable explanations, as this suggestion of these remote areas and the desire to 'wear a sword' but having sometimes only old parts or broken swords to work with. While many might consider such gestures silly or misguided, we cannot imagine the effort to emulate the traditions in such remote regions by those who manage to live in these conditions.
In the Mexican frontiers, the people were very aware of Spanish heritage, and virtually everything was recycled or made use of, so crude versions of the earlier weapons does not seem unlikely.

I cannot imagine a dealer or collector trying to pass this example off as a true vintage rapier, thus my suggestion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... On the length of rapier blades issue, as Fernando has well noted, the blades of both Portuguese and Spanish rapiers often reached almost ridiculous lengths, to the point that royal intervention even tried to regulate the length of them. The one mentioned (132cm or over 51 inches) would have been virtually impossible to wield successfully in the French or Italian schools of fencing, and would have been more aligned with the mysterious Spanish 'destreza' style, which Im sure was equally practiced throughout the Iberian peninsula...

I would take it that, based on simple crude reality, those who fancied such limitless blades were by no means masters of 'dexterity' but searched for a way to keep their foe at distance; no fencing abilities at stake .

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cel7

Hi,

I won this cup-hilt rapier at an art and antiques auction this week. It was described as a 19th/20th century example. Judging from the photos of the blade of this rapier, I made an offering on it because the blade seems much older to me. Today I picked it up and finally had the chance to see it in person. Although this type of weapon falls outside my comfort zone, I can only conclude that it is a strange case. The length is the first thing you notice. The total length is 144 centimeters, the length of the blade is 118 centimeters! That's quite long for a rapier. At the very base it is 42mm wide and 7mm thick.
It is decorated with figures and has a fuller of 33 centimeters. The blade is hand forged and there are a few superficial cracks visible. In general the blade is still reasonably sharp. However, the point is round, but it is of course possible that it has been adjusted at some point. So it could have been several centimeters longer.
The cup is also strange. It is hand-forged, the traces of hammering are clearly visible on the inside. It is decorated with chiseled figures. On one side an angel-like figure and an eagle. On the other side something that looks like a coat of arms and an unknown figure. The last two are inlaid with copper wire or something similar, the other two figures still show remnants of the same material under a magnifying glass. It's not really high art, so perhaps this rapier falls under the heading "Munitions grade"!? One of the arms attached to the inside of the cup once came loose and was repaired with a screw and nut. The handle is simple and made of wood. Perhaps it was wrapped with leather or thread in the past.
Who knows what this is? Is it really a 19th century copy or is it somewhat older?

I also posted this rapier on another forum.

That is a 17th c blade !

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

I would take it that, based on simple crude reality, those who fancied such limitless blades were by no means masters of 'dexterity' but searched for a way to keep their foe at distance; no fencing abilities at stake .

That makes perfect sense. Various masters had varying opinions on blade length rather than a rigid following of specific principles of the system being used. The extraordinarily long blades however were awkward for wear, and it would seem equally difficult to use as you note and certainly would keep the opponent at distance.

Still these long Spanish blades were considered deadly and Spaniards were considered formidable duelists for the coolness they held in a match, which was due very much to the relatively rigid stance they held as they relied mostly on the effective guard positions for defense. My mention of dexterity was applied toward the heavy dragoon saber blades of the M1840, in which improper movements could actually injure the user.

In fencing, dexterity is of course the skill in defensive action using the blade as well as guiding it in the appropriate and effective attack, but certainly the longer blade affords a distinct advantage, despite lack of versatility.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

That is a 17th c blade !

There you are!!!! We needed ya in on this!!! Totally agree of course, but are these rather crude inscribed markings added later?

Seventeenth century rapier blades were still being shipped to the colonies in 1690s as one I have from a shipwreck off Panama then.

[cel7]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

That is a 17th c blade !

Thanks for your response Ulfbert! Nice to read how people respond from different perspectives. That is of course also what makes a forum like this interesting.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I did realize this was pretty much a standard cavalry blade mid 19thc and resembles those on the M1840 US sabers (many blades were Solingen made). Whatever the case, this 'assembly' (like the psuedo espada ancha I posted) could not have been made for actual use. The M1840 was termed by the men 'the old wristbreaker' because of the long, heavy blade which required unique dexterity to handle properly, and typically there was insufficient training to achieve that.

I don't want to derail this thread too much, and I doubt frankensword was intended for use, but doesn't the M1840 have a hatchet point rather than a spearpoint?
It has Bleckmann, Solingen markings at the base of the blade, but nothing else. The blade is 3.3cm across at the base and 90cm long as measured from the cross to the point. It's also got a lot of distal taper (from 9mm at the base to 3.5mm at the end of the fuller and then down to 2mm near the tip), though it still balances at 19cm from the grip. But of course, the hilt is much lighter than that of some cavalry sabers. I was actually surprised at how light it felt (for the size) when I first held it. Not as terrible as it looks, at least.

Originally Posted by ulfberth

That is a 17th c blade !

That is interesting! I am curious about that decorated bit of ricasso with the two circular indentations. I've never seen that before. Does it have any sort of significance?

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by werecow

That is interesting! I am curious about that decorated bit of ricasso with the two circular indentations. I've never seen that before. Does it have any sort of significance?

A dagger I am working on has circles, within circles and the large one has six circles around that!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29211

I presume it to be an Italian blade. If it is a Makers trademark, I'd love to know.

Cheers
GC