Do Phallic shaped Ukirans have any traditional background?

[milandro]

that is exactly what I am talking about .

[A. G. Maisey]

This overt phallic representation would not be tolerated in any Islamic society, yet here in post #7 we see a hilt form that is suited only to a keris that would come from an Islamic society.

Is this a genuine keris hilt intended for use & wear on a keris that would be worn in an Islamic society?

I believe we all know the answer to that question.

I have seen many hilts and and carvings that have the overall appearance of keris hilts, but could never be worn on any keris in Bali.

I first encountered this type of carving during the 1970's, and it still exists today. It used to come from Lombok and was quite often seen in the tourist markets of South Bali. The carving of this type that I have seen in recent years appears to be coming from Madura. It is also possible some might now be carved in Bali, but I doubt it --- much of the tourist targeted carving sold in Bali is actually produced in Jawa, mostly in Central Jawa & in the areas around Surabaya. It is produced in areas other than Bali because the wage rates in Central Jawa and other deprived regions are far below what they are in Bali.

In my experience this openly sexual type of thing is only ever purchased by visitors to Bali, I have not yet seen this sort of thing offered for sale in Jawa.

I have seen these carvings attached to older keris that have been on offer to tourists, I have never seen any Balinese person wearing a keris with an overtly phallic hilt, & I simply cannot imagine how or where any Balinese person could wear a keris dressed in this fashion, or if any sane Balinese man might want to wear such a keris.

I have not yet seen a genuinely old example of an overtly phallic keris hilt, either Balinese or any other.

I my opinion this type of carving originated in Lombok and was produced only for the tourist market. There are many items produced for the tourist market in Bali that use precisely the same phallic form, items such as bottle openers, kitchen spoons, letter openers, keyrings & etc & etc & etc.

Having said all of that, I will now add this:- a very famous, very highly respected connoisseur of Indonesian art, who also had rather deviant sexual proclivities was famous not only for his interest in art & especially keris, but also for his impressive collection of keris related items that were extremely sexually orientated. He favoured phallic & yonic keris display stands and statues, yonic wrongkos, phallic hilts. He even had an armchair that was carved in yonic form.

However, that collection was kept under cover and nobody but the trusted few ever got to see it.

[milandro]

most if not all the samples I have seen were Balinese (or indeed Lombok) krises hilts and new, which is the reason why I asked if there were any old traditional examples.

Yesterday I went to visit the Leiden Ethnological museum and there were (although not among the krises) several examples of statues displaying phalli well in evidence (even Javanese from time prior the Islamisation ).

[Paul de Souza]

My keris was acquired in the late 90s or early 2000s before 2004. So it will be 20 years old but within the timeline Alan mentioned. I always assumed it part of and expession Buddhist-Hindu beliefs. Here in Singapore, we have lots of Thai phallus amulets. Perhaps I made a mistaken association. Come to think of it, you don't see it in local Tamil Hindu iconology, except for the Lingam. Thanks for the info.

But out of curiousity, Alan, were art collectors items old or "new" made? Items from the 70s are now past half century.

[David]

Paul, i believe that while expressions of the yoni and lingam have always been present in Hindu, and to a lesser extent, even in Islamic Indonesian keris forms, they have always been more subtle than this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing subtle about Candi Sukuh David, but the thing that is different is the understanding.

In Hindu belief we have a religious association, in the Abrahamic religious belief systems we have an entirely different understanding.

Devout Muslims in Central Jawa regard Candi Sukuh as something disgraceful, they call it the "dirty" candi, I have heard friends of mine express the idea that the government should put bulldozers through it.

I had intended to place a link to images of Candi Sukuh, but it was far too long, so I suggest that a google search for "Candi Sukuh Images" might be educational.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Nothing subtle about Candi Sukuh David, but the thing that is different is the understanding.

In Hindu belief we have a religious association, in the Abrahamic religious belief systems we have an entirely different understanding.

Devout Muslims in Central Jawa regard Candi Sukuh as something disgraceful, they call it the "dirty" candi, I have heard friends of mine express the idea that the government should put bulldozers through it.

I had intended to place a link to images of Candi Sukuh, but it was far too long, so I suggest that a google search for "Candi Sukuh Images" might be educational.

Absolutely Alan, but please note that i was talking about how these concepts are displayed in KERIS symbolism specifically, not in the art presented at Candi Sukuh.