Taiwan Paiwan Formasa sword/dagger

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 25th May 2023, 08:28 PM

But, I was not suggesting that the new hilt job would be done in a shop in the west, western shops stock all bamboos and it is not a hard job to do for someone who knows how and there are plenty here in UK who do including myself, you do not have to be Asian to build a simple hilt like this, being a knife maker and smith for 35 years I could do this with ease, no problem at all, I just need a picture of the original to work from.

Tourist and non tourist.

You are taking tourist in the wrong context, tourist knives swords etc have been made since the pre Victorian period in countries all around the globe wherever early tourists went, many early tourist knives came in different qualities depending on the smith, some were very well made by traditional methods some not.
Also just because a blade shows a few cold shuts along its length it does not actually mean it is a laminated blade, those cold shut's are often seen on mono steel blades to, many kukris from Nepal have such, they are also hand made by traditional methods and many for tourism for many years now, and especially tribal blades from Asia both old and newer, a simple water quench to make a cutting edge hard is no problem to do for any smith with the skills to do it, as the makers of these were smiths then it is likely they would make a real blade, no reason not to make it with a real live cutting edge back then.
Also tourist knives and swords in the 60s and 70s and even 80s in native regions were not made as they are today in factories with rubbish steel blades, many were hand made in styles that were like the old ones and by traditional methods, some as I already stated were far better than others,
Yes they were bought by tourists to take home as trophies as was common practice for westerners for at least 150 years maybe more, but these 60s and 70s pieces likely were used by the native peoples to for general use as well and for festivals etc, I am not poo poo'ing your sword, I am simply saying that many are real with real blades, but from the early tourist times of the 60s and 70s.

Today there is a revival of these knives in the country of origin, you can still buy an exact copy which is made by traditional methods if you know where to look on line but they are not cheap, proving that some of the makers kept the old skills and passed them down through families.

Again I mean no offence at all by my remarks I have made here, I am just speaking from experience of having seen many of these early tourist types in the uk, which truly is a country still filled with heaps of old weaponry due to our warring colonial past.

Sajen · 25th May 2023, 10:25 PM

Yes, the scabbard is what we usually see by these tourist swords, no doubt.
The simple bamboo handle could have been attached elsewhere. The tang is complete through the handle and peened and extra secured two times! For what so much work when not for use?

The blade seems certainly laminated and has a different profile as the blades from the tourist ones, they are flat and from lower quality and the handle is just put-on, I never would try to swing such a piece!
I for my part guess that it's an antique blade which has lost it's handle and scabbard and gets reused as a working tool with a self-made handle and a replacement scabbard. Just my two cents.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 25th May 2023, 10:31 PM

I personally would polish the blade and give it an etch.

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 26th May 2023, 01:24 PM

I also would suggest a polish and etch , by hand with the right materials and etchant, I'll bet the the outcome will show cold shuts and no lamination but I could be wrong, only one way to find out & that is elbow work and time, do not do it with any modern polishing tool or grinder, if you want good results then polishing by hand with graded polishing papers and WATER not oil is the way to do the job, and the water does not need to be special water, tap, or other will do the job. regards

snody

Maj-Biffy Snodgrass · 26th May 2023, 01:34 PM

One more little and valid observation, the hilt of your knife is shorter than the original early tourist ones that I showed here in attached the pic with identical blade and scabbard, although your scabbard is minus its top curving carved section, so any re hilt with slightly shorter hilt would allow for a washer and peening over of the end of the tang, just an observation but a valid one for sure.
And one question, what are the spacer washers on the top and bottom ends of the hilt made from ??, can you tell which material has been used. regards

Snody.

Copycat · 26th May 2023, 05:47 PM

@Snody

The hilt looks shorter indeed. However, no conclusion can be made if we were to compare length of the hilt alone.

-the tang length of the tourist sword is not visible. It's not surprising if it's really short. It could be too short to peen on a usable hilt.
-the hilts of authentic swords were also short.

The brown spacers are leather. Below are 2 more perfectly fitting brass spacers.

Copycat · 26th May 2023, 06:55 PM

It doesn't look like cast steel. Only cast steel can have cold shut.

It still really looks like forging errors as a result of laminating a blade.

I will post close ups and similar examples later.

Copycat · 26th May 2023, 07:27 PM

First one is the close up of the Taiwan blade. All others are close ups of antiques.

Copycat · 27th May 2023, 09:56 PM

Apologies. I thought I posted a reply.

The tang of the tourist knife is not visible. It is also possible that this tang is too short to peen on a usable hilt. It's not surprising for tourist quality. You only need to glue the tang on the hilt.

The brown spacers are leather. Below are 2 more brass spacers.

Also, cold shuts look different if I were to compare with online examples.

25th May 2023, 08:28 PM	#1
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	Good points and duly noted. But, I was not suggesting that the new hilt job would be done in a shop in the west, western shops stock all bamboos and it is not a hard job to do for someone who knows how and there are plenty here in UK who do including myself, you do not have to be Asian to build a simple hilt like this, being a knife maker and smith for 35 years I could do this with ease, no problem at all, I just need a picture of the original to work from. Tourist and non tourist. You are taking tourist in the wrong context, tourist knives swords etc have been made since the pre Victorian period in countries all around the globe wherever early tourists went, many early tourist knives came in different qualities depending on the smith, some were very well made by traditional methods some not. Also just because a blade shows a few cold shuts along its length it does not actually mean it is a laminated blade, those cold shut's are often seen on mono steel blades to, many kukris from Nepal have such, they are also hand made by traditional methods and many for tourism for many years now, and especially tribal blades from Asia both old and newer, a simple water quench to make a cutting edge hard is no problem to do for any smith with the skills to do it, as the makers of these were smiths then it is likely they would make a real blade, no reason not to make it with a real live cutting edge back then. Also tourist knives and swords in the 60s and 70s and even 80s in native regions were not made as they are today in factories with rubbish steel blades, many were hand made in styles that were like the old ones and by traditional methods, some as I already stated were far better than others, Yes they were bought by tourists to take home as trophies as was common practice for westerners for at least 150 years maybe more, but these 60s and 70s pieces likely were used by the native peoples to for general use as well and for festivals etc, I am not poo poo'ing your sword, I am simply saying that many are real with real blades, but from the early tourist times of the 60s and 70s. Today there is a revival of these knives in the country of origin, you can still buy an exact copy which is made by traditional methods if you know where to look on line but they are not cheap, proving that some of the makers kept the old skills and passed them down through families. Again I mean no offence at all by my remarks I have made here, I am just speaking from experience of having seen many of these early tourist types in the uk, which truly is a country still filled with heaps of old weaponry due to our warring colonial past. Last edited by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass; 25th May 2023 at 08:29 PM. Reason: typo

26th May 2023, 01:24 PM	#4
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	agreed Detlef and a very very good idea. I also would suggest a polish and etch , by hand with the right materials and etchant, I'll bet the the outcome will show cold shuts and no lamination but I could be wrong, only one way to find out & that is elbow work and time, do not do it with any modern polishing tool or grinder, if you want good results then polishing by hand with graded polishing papers and WATER not oil is the way to do the job, and the water does not need to be special water, tap, or other will do the job. regards snody

26th May 2023, 01:34 PM	#5
Maj-Biffy Snodgrass Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 66	hilt and peened tang. One more little and valid observation, the hilt of your knife is shorter than the original early tourist ones that I showed here in attached the pic with identical blade and scabbard, although your scabbard is minus its top curving carved section, so any re hilt with slightly shorter hilt would allow for a washer and peening over of the end of the tang, just an observation but a valid one for sure. And one question, what are the spacer washers on the top and bottom ends of the hilt made from ??, can you tell which material has been used. regards Snody.

26th May 2023, 07:27 PM	#8
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 38	First one is the close up of the Taiwan blade. All others are close ups of antiques. Attached Images

25th May 2023, 10:25 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,732	Yes, the scabbard is what we usually see by these tourist swords, no doubt. The simple bamboo handle could have been attached elsewhere. The tang is complete through the handle and peened and extra secured two times! For what so much work when not for use? The blade seems certainly laminated and has a different profile as the blades from the tourist ones, they are flat and from lower quality and the handle is just put-on, I never would try to swing such a piece! I for my part guess that it's an antique blade which has lost it's handle and scabbard and gets reused as a working tool with a self-made handle and a replacement scabbard. Just my two cents. Regards, Detlef

25th May 2023, 10:31 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,732	I personally would polish the blade and give it an etch.

26th May 2023, 05:47 PM	#6
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 38	@Snody The hilt looks shorter indeed. However, no conclusion can be made if we were to compare length of the hilt alone. -the tang length of the tourist sword is not visible. It's not surprising if it's really short. It could be too short to peen on a usable hilt. -the hilts of authentic swords were also short. The brown spacers are leather. Below are 2 more perfectly fitting brass spacers.

26th May 2023, 06:55 PM	#7
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 38	It doesn't look like cast steel. Only cast steel can have cold shut. It still really looks like forging errors as a result of laminating a blade. I will post close ups and similar examples later.

27th May 2023, 09:56 PM	#9
Copycat Member Join Date: Apr 2023 Posts: 38	Apologies. I thought I posted a reply. The tang of the tourist knife is not visible. It is also possible that this tang is too short to peen on a usable hilt. It's not surprising for tourist quality. You only need to glue the tang on the hilt. The brown spacers are leather. Below are 2 more brass spacers. Also, cold shuts look different if I were to compare with online examples.