my last keris

[Gustav]

Radya Pustaka Museum

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Radya Pustaka Museum

Yes Gustav, the red signed keris has the inverted hilt in according with tradition.
It's a pity that in the Radia Pustaka Museum’s pic we cannot see not only the corresponding sheath (if it's a walikat, or a gayaman or a ladrang) but also how the keris is housed inside.

I am however more and more convinced that with a gayman or, even worse, with a ladrang, the insertion in the regular way would be very, but very problematic.
I say this because from the images found on texts, in this forum, in FB groups, or also on You Tube I only find post that confirm what I think and have written and I have yet to see a concrete, real evidence that proves otherwise

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I doubt that anybody here, or elsewhere, has any problem at all with a reversed hilt, this is not infrequent, it does occur.

The problem arises with a reverse mount to the wrongko.

In normal dress situations, and for several other reasons, this reverse mount to wrongko is simply impractical.

I do believe that there would be a reason for this reverse mount to wrongko, but whatever that reason might be, it falls outside of my experience & knowledge.

[Gustav]

For Cengkrong and Cundrik the normal position in the sheath is reversed, because reversed is the Gonjo, not the hilt.

The general problem is, as I understand it, that Marco's Keris isn't Cundrik or Cengkrong.

Well, one of Pusaka of the Empu lineage from Magetan is a Pedang-like Keris, which isn't Cundrik or Cengkrong, because it has completely different Ricikan, with reversed, quite unconventional Gonjo. So the position of it in the sheath is reversed. It is traditionally dated back to the first Empu in Magetan lineage.

What I also understand is, that Marco's Keris is a more like a Dhapur, which normally sits in the sheath the common way.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Marco, I doubt that anybody here, or elsewhere, has any problem at all with a reversed hilt, this is not infrequent, it does occur.

The problem arises with a reverse mount to the wrongko.

In normal dress situations, and for several other reasons, this reverse mount to wrongko is simply impractical.

I do believe that there would be a reason for this reverse mount to wrongko, but whatever that reason might be, it falls outside of my experience & knowledge.

Sorry Alan, another ulterior example (image taken from the net)


1. Sheath and the keris resting over the ladrang (first pic)

2. then I ask myself the question: but how is the blade inserted?

3: I take the blade and turn it upside down
4. I take a second blade, turn it upside down and mirror it

4: I approach the two blades to the ladrang as if they were inserted and this is the result (second pic):

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav & Marco.

With cundrik & cengkrong, the hilt position is sometimes reversed, in my experience, the position of the blade in the wrongko is not.

The picture posted with the blade over the wrongko shows an incorrectly mounted blade in both positions, if the blade is original to the wrongko we will find that the top of the gonjo sits with the sirah cecak & the buntut urang both sitting within the top line of the atasan, it is permissible for a small part of the gonjo to rise above the top line of the gambar at its center, it is not permissible for the gonjo to sit as depicted.

I'm a bit with David here:- I simply do not understand the reason for this extended discussion on an aberration, I do not understand what the objective of the discussion is.

We have a couple of examples keris which by any normal standard are deviant from the norm.

So?

Some people have strange ideas, even in Jawa, if somebody wants his keris mounted back to front I guess he will not be strung between two saplings and gradually be pulled apart as they straighten.

We have a very definite anomaly.

Why not just accept it for what it is?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gustav & Marco.

With cundrik & cengkrong, the hilt position is sometimes reversed, in my experience, the position of the blade in the wrongko is not.

The picture posted with the blade over the wrongko shows an incorrectly mounted blade in both positions, if the blade is original to the wrongko we will find that the top of the gonjo sits with the sirah cecak & the buntut urang both sitting within the top line of the atasan, it is permissible for a small part of the gonjo to rise above the top line of the gambar at its center, it is not permissible for the gonjo to sit as depicted.

I'm a bit with David here:- I simply do not understand the reason for this extended discussion on an aberration, I do not understand what the objective of the discussion is.

We have a couple of examples keris which by any normal standard are deviant from the norm.

So?

Some people have strange ideas, even in Jawa, if somebody wants his keris mounted back to front I guess he will not be strung between two saplings and gradually be pulled apart as they straighten.

We have a very definite anomaly.

Why not just accept it for what it is?

Sorry again Alan, with all my respect, but this is one of the answers which, unfortunately, slowly push collectors and scholars away from the VKF

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I would assess my post #93 as polite, and in my understanding absolutely factual.

I do acknowledge that my understanding is not perfect, nor is my knowledge, but it is understanding & knowledge gained in large part from two ranking empu in who were members of the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy, from several members of the original anak-anak ASKI, from 70 years of keris study, from around 60 years of buying and selling keris, both locally and internationally.

If you consider my style of writing to be offensive, then I suggest with the greatest good will, that you simply do not read what I write.

From the very beginning of my involvement in this discussion group, I have not participated with any intention of having fun, of amusing myself, or of making friends, my only objective has been to impart some of my knowledge & experience to others.

My training under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo was not without a price, that price was my solemn vow that I would do two things, firstly I was required to swear that I would undertake the preservation & restoration of any keris I had access to & that needed this attention, secondly I was required to swear that I would to the best of my ability attempt to spread an understanding of keris culture as I knew it to be.

Marco, if you find my attempts at fulfilling my promises to be objectionable, well then, just ignore me.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gustav & Marco.
With cundrik & cengkrong, the hilt position is sometimes reversed, in my experience, the position of the blade in the wrongko is not.

This statement, except the "in my experience" part, is an absolute opposite to everything I have seen, read, heard about this subject so far, with sources going back to at least the beginning of XX cent.

[Marcokeris]

excuse me all, and I appeal to anyone who reads this topic. Please make the effort to enter my way of thinking for a moment...I promise you won't go crazy:

1. I posted a kris (a kris of mine) reversed in the scabbard

2. I was immediately told that a kris had never been seen in that position. I was alone
3. I posted an old example, an example taken from vkf. Now I was no longer the only one but there were two of us
4. I posted other examples... now we were no longer two but 2%
5. I hypothesized the idea, I think with an unsubstantiated image, that the walikat could be the suitable scabbard for those types of kris if you want an insertion according to tradition
6. Finally, I reiterated my thoughts with a last image. That is, it could also be according to tradition that those dhapurs need a rotated head-to-tail insertion


Final result:

it is not possible to go against the rules of Surakarta Karaton hierarchy or anak-anak ASKI. Not possible!
Ok I accept these rules but I would like to see a written, a translation or visual proof of the rule that said that all the keris with these particular dhapur must be inserted in such way

[A. G. Maisey]

I do understand that your experience differs from my own, Gustav, and I do respect your right to hold an opinion that differs from my own.

Marco, I doubt you will ever see what you would like to see, my own opinion is primarily based upon what I have owned, seen, & sold, as well as the opinion of a tukang wrongko who came from a long line of m'ranggis & who worked for me for around 12 years.

The few sources of information I quoted in a previous post are overall my most important sources of information, but I cannot recall that this particular topic under discussion ever arose with these people to whom I referred.

And after all of this, I still cannot understand what this thread is all about.

I think I might bow out of this discussion, I've been in Bali & Jawa for the last three weeks, I'm on holidays, and it will be another week at least before I get home, so I think I'd rather talk to the people here about keris than continue trying to understand what we're trying to do here.