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24th March 2023, 04:18 PM | #1 | |
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Hello Gavin,
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However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style. Regards, Kai |
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24th March 2023, 11:11 PM | #2 | |
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I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion. Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion. Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations). In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels. A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 25th March 2023 at 01:49 AM. |
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24th March 2023, 11:51 PM | #3 |
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Hi Gavin,
This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented. The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak. An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread. |
25th March 2023, 12:57 AM | #4 | |
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I've not yet any foot in either camp as to what the symbolism actually is, only what I see with what was previously presented and how I view iconography within this thread. I think the visual references in a number of threads I've provided do suggest that it could well be... but I make the propositions because I am interested in insights about such things and to promote discussion. The truth of the matter is, without a time machine, we will never really know... however discussion is important to develop idea and look at parallels within regions that share different cultures. Like that Biblical inscription on the Kampilan, although drawn from the Koran, a very atypical thing to find as was the notion that it's hilt could potentially have been a Garuda representation, just as these hilts/pommels could be... it's all chicken/egg stuff though... A good perspective, a discussion that has been ongoing for two hundred years, perhaps longer. https://ayalamuseum.org/collection/1...%20god%20Indra). Looking at some of the humanoid "Jawa Demam exotic hilts presented, could they actually represent angels and the floral motifs and tree of life motifs or mirror panels be symbolic of paradise. Gabriel is particularly noted in the Koran and is the most important angel in Islam. The Angel Jibreel’s main responsibility is to communicate the Words of Allah to His prophets. That would be pretty potent symbolism to carry. More thoughts on the subject. Gavin |
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25th March 2023, 12:59 AM | #5 | ||
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Hello Gavin,
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Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning). I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend... Regards, Kai |
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25th March 2023, 01:45 AM | #6 | ||||
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Hi Kai,
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Thanks for the ongoing discussions. |
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25th March 2023, 03:48 AM | #7 |
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Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far.
I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu. I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation. I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time. Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu. When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started... Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him. Edit note **Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings** Last edited by Ian; 25th March 2023 at 05:09 AM. |
27th May 2023, 12:35 PM | #8 |
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Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P
Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there.... |
28th May 2023, 12:30 PM | #9 | |
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Thanks, Gavin, for keeping this going!
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There are strong historic links between the (especially eastern) Malay Peninsula, Brunei, and Bangsa Moro. Regards, Kai |
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28th July 2023, 05:50 AM | #10 | |
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I wanted to take a second to thank you and others for the wealth of thought and effort put into discussing this topic and for the willingness to explore. I apologize for being MIA and will try to continue to at to the discussion as I find new examples and evidence. I still lean toward a root based outside the traditional muslin influence, but obviously a firm answer may not ever be attainable. However, there is joy in the journey!! |
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27th May 2023, 12:36 PM | #11 |
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28th May 2023, 12:24 PM | #12 | |
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garuda kris |
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