Enquiry about a Bali keris motif

[Anthony G.]

I have taken the liberty to post this Balinese keris photo of a friend. Can anyone advise what is the motif? It does not looks like Ganesh.
Could it be Lembuswana which is a unique Indonesian mythological creature.

[David]

In all the depictions of Lembuswana that i am seeing the tusks always seem pretty prominent. But i agree that this does not seem like a depiction of Ganesha.
It's a beautiful and unusual keris.

[jagabuwana]

A type of Yali, perhaps?

From wikipedia:

Yali (Tamil: யாளி, IAST: Yāḷi),[1] also called Vyala,[2] is a Hindu mythological creature, portrayed with the head and the body of a lion, the trunk and the tusks of an elephant, and sometimes bearing equine features.[3]

That said, I know nothing about whether that fits with what we know about what figures are depicted in Balinese hinduism as it relates to the keris. I don't know if Yali's feature in Bali at all and I've never seen one being depicted on a keris, but again, I wouldn't know.

Whatever or whoever this figure is, as we've seen many times on this forum, in absence of glaringly obvious features or by-the-book details by a craftsman intending to do faithful depictions, it can be difficult and sometimes impossible to know for sure unless we ask the maker themselves.

Nevertheless I'm interested to see whether this can lead to a positive ID of this figure so that I may learn more about it.

Sources:
1. Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yali_%28mythology
2. Wikicommons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...anthapuram.jpg

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

A type of Yali, perhaps?

From wikipedia:

Yali (Tamil: யாளி, IAST: Yāḷi),[1] also called Vyala,[2] is a Hindu mythological creature, portrayed with the head and the body of a lion, the trunk and the tusks of an elephant, and sometimes bearing equine features.[3]

That said, I know nothing about whether that fits with what we know about what figures are depicted in Balinese hinduism as it relates to the keris. I don't know if Yali's feature in Bali at all and I've never seen one being depicted on a keris, but again, I wouldn't know.

Whatever or whoever this figure is, as we've seen many times on this forum, in absence of glaringly obvious features or by-the-book details by a craftsman intending to do faithful depictions, it can be difficult and sometimes impossible to know for sure unless we ask the maker themselves.

Nevertheless I'm interested to see whether this can lead to a positive ID of this figure so that I may learn more about it.

Sources:
1. Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yali_%28mythology
2. Wikicommons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...anthapuram.jpg

Looks very much like it. Interesting.

[JoeCanada42]

what a cool sword,
so very very interesting...

[milandro]

I think the first link isn't displaying the way it should , I've tried to help but returns the same result ( it asks did you mean Did you mean: Yali (mythology)? and you have to click that one)




this is a rather more elaborate page

https://viluptduniya.wordpress.com/2...the-protector/

[A. G. Maisey]

The idea of "Yali" is certainly a part of Hindu mythology, there are a number of different types of Yali, and they serve a number of different functions, they also have a number different names.

However, Bali-Hindu is not mainstream Hindu.

I do not recognise this figure under discussion, I do not know of the representation of Yali in any of its forms in Balinese art or mythology. This does not mean that such representation does not exist, it only means that I have not encountered it in Bali, and I feel that if it does exist in Bali, I probably should have encountered it.

From what we can see of this blade, it does appear to have some age, but looks in an image on a screen can be very deceptive.

My current feeling is that we might be looking at a comparatively recent artistic essay here, possibly Bali, more likely Lombok, and I do not think it is from East Jawa/Madura.

By "comparatively recent" I mean within the last 100 years or so.

The above cannot be read as an opinion, it is comment that might hopefully lead to further discussion.

[David]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

A type of Yali, perhaps?

From wikipedia:

Yali (Tamil: யாளி, IAST: Yāḷi),[1] also called Vyala,[2] is a Hindu mythological creature, portrayed with the head and the body of a lion, the trunk and the tusks of an elephant, and sometimes bearing equine features.[3]

That said, I know nothing about whether that fits with what we know about what figures are depicted in Balinese hinduism as it relates to the keris. I don't know if Yali's feature in Bali at all and I've never seen one being depicted on a keris, but again, I wouldn't know.

Whatever or whoever this figure is, as we've seen many times on this forum, in absence of glaringly obvious features or by-the-book details by a craftsman intending to do faithful depictions, it can be difficult and sometimes impossible to know for sure unless we ask the maker themselves.

Nevertheless I'm interested to see whether this can lead to a positive ID of this figure so that I may learn more about it.

Sources:
1. Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yali_%28mythology
2. Wikicommons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...anthapuram.jpg

Yes as you question and Alan has pointed out, Hinduism is not necessarily the same in India as in Bali and i have yet to see images that depict this creature from Bali. But this does seem a good match.
I also agree with Alan that this keris is not super old, though i do suspect it is antique and if not than at least pre-WWII. Anthony, perhaps you can post the rest of the images of this keris so that people can get a better idea of it's over all appearance and possible age.

[A. G. Maisey]

For me, one very troubling feature of this keris is the obvious replacement of the gonjo.

The material used is not at all what I would expect to see in even a halfway competent restoration, it looks more like a deliberate attempt to deceive:-

old keris often have the gonjo replaced so let's make that replacement so obvious that even Blind Freddy cannot miss it; & they sure managed that:- spongy, half washed iron, deep acid aging.

Too, too obvious. But maybe only to somebody who has had close contact with the Shonky Boys in certain markets of Central & East Jawa.

But then again, I do tend to doubt almost everything.

It would be useful to see the entire blade & together with its dress.

[Anthony G.]

Hi All

rest of available photos, pics not mine and courtesy of the owner.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Anthony.

That does not look like Bali to my eye, 35 conventional count luk?

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

come on --- pull the other one.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

Valid point i had not considered.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you Anthony.

That does not look like Bali to my eye, 35 conventional count luk?

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

come on --- pull the other one.

Nice one Alan,
Possibly the punchiest and best comment I've read on this forum thus far! Yes, not a good plan to diss the Destroyer (or the Renovator as I prefer to refer to Lord Shiva) !

[A. G. Maisey]

So, if some of us can agree that perhaps a degree of wisdom was absent in whoever made this blade, is it possible that this blade was made by a person who respected Lord Siwa?

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, if some of us can agree that perhaps a degree of wisdom was absent in whoever made this blade, is it possible that this blade was made by a person who respected Lord Siwa?

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

Well, the observation does perhaps force us to reassess the time frame, and possibly the location in which this keris was created.

[A. G. Maisey]

During the period I have been closely associated with Jawa & Bali, & that means approx. the last 50 odd years, I have only very rarely encountered what I could consider to be "old" understandings of the keris, and the people who had these understandings were, for the most part, not craftsmen, nor collectors, nor dealers, they were mostly people who had no particular interest in keris at all.

So yes, I am inclined to believe that a lot of the ideas that might have been associated with the keris at times in the past are now no longer a part of keris understanding.

The belief system that is Bali-Hindu has always varied from the belief system that we regard as mainstream Hindu. In very simple terms Bali-Hindu prior to the Independence of Indonesia was a mixture of Hindu-Buddhist- & indigenous beliefs, and it still is, but the requirements of the Abrahamic religions, and specifically Islam, that came with the formation of the new state of Indonesia required the Bali Hindu religion to adopt certain changes in order to retain the legitimacy of the Balinese system of belief, so now, we do not call the Balinese system of belief "Bali Hindu", we call it "Bali Dharma", or more correctly "Agama Hindu Dharma".

There is a lot about this on the net, but good old Wiki puts it all into a teacup:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balinese_Hinduism

[Gustav]

The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306.

I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets.

I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by Gustav

The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306.

I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets.

I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok.

What is your view about this? I have a Lombok friend who told me that old Balinese keris does not have luk that exceed 17 luk. Above 17 Luks are more likely modern century creation.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, just a comment in respect of pamor.

It really does not matter what the source of the contrasting material is prior to it being used in a keris, it also does not matter how thick it is, nor its form.

Before the first weld is taken to fix it between iron, the contrasting material is forged very thin, about as thick as a piece of newspaper. When I have done this part of the forging, I would take the nickel to the point where it began to break up under the hammer & show holes in the material. This nickel usually started out as about 15-20mm thick.

The uniform thickness of the contrasting material in the finished blade is an indication that the entire forging & welding process was well controlled & consistent.

The idea of long sogokan following luk is new to me. In a keris with luk there will normally be a bend in the sogokan, but the proportional length should not vary. Some keris do have exceptionally long grooves in place of a sogokan, I've forgotten the usual name for these, but they are not sogokan.

In an old Balinese keris that follows tradition, the number of luk by conventional count, should not exceed 13. Yes, I am aware that we can find old keris with more luk than this, but the legitimacy within the socio-cultural tradition is open to question.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In an old Balinese keris that follows tradition, the number of luk by conventional count, should not exceed 13.

Alan, I take this to mean 13 luk by the current convention of counting and therefore 11 luk by the old method. Am I understanding correctly?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jaga.

The number of luk to parallel the number of roofs to which the family temple of the keris custodian is entitled.

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

What is your view about this? I have a Lombok friend who told me that old Balinese keris does not have luk that exceed 17 luk. Above 17 Luks are more likely modern century creation.

Anthony, if you ask about the Keris in Hales book (which has 31 Luk), it's impossible to say something from a quite small picture. Its appearance in that picture is that of a Keris older then Ex-IFICAH, which surely is 20th century, and I think, not the very beginning of it.

Regarding high number Luk Kerisses in Bali, Jasper&Mas Pirngadie, who gathered their material in the years before and around WWI and are conservative about Keris Bali, do list names for Keris with 15 and 25 Luk.

As I wrote, there is a Keris with 19 Luk in the collection of museum in Leiden, which was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar.

But your friend certainly is wright in that there surely are much more modern creations with high Luk number then genuine old ones.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, we can find high numbers of luk in keris that originated in a number of locations, but in every case of which I am aware, these are relatively recent keris. When I say "relatively recent", I am thinking in a Javanese time frame, which places keris younger than Sultan Agung as "new keris". I am not thinking in terms of Kamardikan nor even of 19th century.

In Javanese keris tradition any keris with more than 13 luk (conventional count) is regarded as a keris that was made for somebody who was outside the norms of society, somebody with special talents or qualities, such as a dukun, or an artist, or similar people with particular characters or talents.

I do not know why a Balinese style keris might have more than the socially supportable number of luk, but my suspicion is that such a Balinese style might well have been made within the Balinese community in Lombok. I once had custody of a royal keris that had many more than the socially supportable number of luk, and based upon the old dress (19th century), which was Lombok style dress, and possibly upon the kinatah work, this might well have been of Balinese/Lombok origin.

If we play with the numerology of keris luk we can draw all sorts of conclusions from the results, for example, if we apply the game to the keris under discussion we can say that 3 + 5 = 8, now the number 8 according to the Candra Sangkala is the number of both the Naga & the Elephant, and the Elephant is the icon of Ganesha. But in my opinion, this sort of construction really has very little to support it, so it is perhaps as well not to go anywhere near it. There are a variety of numerological applications that can be applied to keris.

In summary, yes, we can find keris from Bali with more luk than socio-cultural mores can support, and at the present time we do not know why.

Just because this keris under discussion does have more luk than we might tend to expect, that by itself is perhaps not sufficient to affix any sort of age to it, but when we look at the number of rather questionable characteristics of this keris, there does seem to me to be quite a few open questions.

[Gustav]

Alan, I understand well all you have written here, agree, and wouldn't argue with anything.

Regarding possibility or impossibility of higher number Luk on pre-Sultan Agung time Keris, let's say pre-1600 - I am custodian of a Megantoro "type" blade with 19 Luk. It did come with Malay Pendokok and hilt. With Megantoro "type" I mean blade has a central field, which has a central ridge at its lower part, and this field terminates in a central ridge. It has the typical Megantoro "Kembang Kacang". In the central field and Sorsoran it has remnants of prepared base for flat koftgari style Kinatah. The style of ornamentation, even for a Sumatran blade, could be early 1600 or likely before that.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I am always very wary of early dated keris, possibly unjustifiably so, but when I consider societal structure, population & development of the Archipelago prior to 1600 all I can see are warning signs telling me to go slow.

Through to around the 1300's or maybe later, in Jawa, the evidence seems to point to the keris style still following pre-Islamic forms. Candi Sukuh is dated to the 1400's, and the several keris found in bas-relifs there are still Buda style. There are longer weapons represented at Candi Sukuh, & they do have some keris-like characteristics, but I think we would now call them "keris pedang".

The early spread of keris from Jawa seems to have been by way of gifts to rulers & other elites in societies with which Javanese kingdoms had trade links, one of the attached characteristics of the keris is as a binding instrument, a physical icon of the Naga Basuki (Vasuki), who does have a binding force. When the physical object was given as a token of friendship, the societal values & beliefs of Jawa did not follow, thus it is that we can find varying keris beliefs & values in societies where the keris is found.

In Jawa until the present day, we can find a belief that maintains that only a ruler can have a keris of 13 luk. This 13 luk is in accord with the current method of count, which in the older method of count, and one that seems to have been used by at least some people in Bali up to at least circa 1978, equates to a luk count of 11.

The number 11 is significant in Balinese society and in pre-Islamic Javanese society as the number associated with Siwa, and with a ruler, the representative of Siwa on earth, as the appropriate number of roofs on a meru dedicated to Siwa, and also to a ruler, not only upon the ruler's personal temple, but also upon his bale, the cremation tower.

If we can assume that the ornamentation on the keris in your possession was placed there at the time of manufacture --- & I believe we can assume this, since it is the foundation for kinatah work --- then this would seem to indicate that the keris itself was made in Sumatera, if indeed this ornamentation can be confirmed as being of a Sumatran style current in the 1500's.

The keris Si Ginjai was supposedly made by Empu Kinom & was gifted by Sultan Agung of Mataram to the ruler of Jambi in the mid-1500's by Javanese dates, or if using the Western system of dating, the first half of the 1600's.

It seems to be generally accepted that it was after this gift of Si Ginjai that the Modern/Islamic form of keris began to proliferate in Sumatera.

If all the above is so, ie, that the keris in your possession is a keris of Sumatran manufacture that dates from the early 1600's or earlier, then this does indeed seem to indicate that we all need to have a little bit of a re-think about the recorded history of (probably) the Archipelago in general.

However, it is --- to me at least --- quite understandable that we do find many more keris with a proliferation of luk from locations outside Jawa/Bali, than we find originating from Jawa/Bali.