Moroccan dagger??

roanoa · 20th March 2023, 11:16 PM

Picked up this at a show. Not my field, but I could not pass.... I found a similar one on internet (sold a while back by Ashoka Arts) identified a Moroccan. Help???? The back is partially grooved. It has a strange (?) proof mark. Any thoughts. Thanks.

TVV · 20th March 2023, 11:32 PM

Yes, it is from Morocco and it is known among collectors as "genoui". Nice dagger, congratulations,

Teodor

RobT · 21st March 2023, 01:53 AM

Hi All,

The device at the base of the blade looks like a decoration commonly found on Algerian khodmi (see photos). The symbol also appears to be partially hidden by the bolster which may mean that the blade is not original to the hilt. This suspicion is heightened by the fact that both fullers also run under the bolster. An Algerian blade re-hilted in Morocco perhaps?

Sincerely,
RobT

sabertasche · 21st March 2023, 05:23 AM

VERY nice addition!

G

roanoa · 21st March 2023, 07:23 AM

Hi, Sabertache. I live in Coquitlam. Picked this up at the Chilliwack show on Sunday... Cheers.

Duccio · 21st March 2023, 04:41 PM

Hello Roano, your new knife comes from Algeria and is called "Bou Saadi" from the name of a city where it is produced, or Khodmi; it was used by the shepherds of the Kabilya tribes to slaughter the sheep... The handle can be made of wood, or bone or horn, as I think yours is.
See you soon!
Duccio

kahnjar1 · 22nd March 2023, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Yes, it is from Morocco and it is known among collectors as "genoui". Nice dagger, congratulations,

Teodor

Hi Teodor,
I was under the impression that Genoui were usually double edged. The subject item is single edged.
Stu

TVV · 22nd March 2023, 12:58 AM

Eric Claude in his book on swords and daggers from Morocco and Algeria has shown multiple examples of these Moroccan daggers, and he describes them as genoui. Buttin from what I recall prefers to describe them as sboula.

The confusion with Algerian khodmi daggers is understandable and these knives may well have a common ancestor, such as the stiletto, but the decoration, the shape of the hilt, the blades etc are all different.

RobT · 22nd March 2023, 01:34 AM

Duccio,

While the symbol at the base of the blade appears to be something commonly seen on Algerian khodmi, both the blade and hilt of roanoa's knife appear to be atypical for a khodmi. On all of the khodmi blades I have seen, the bolster is integral with the blade and the blades are asymmetrically ground. Likewise, none of the eight blades in my modest collection have a ricasso/sharpening stop, nor can I remember seeing this feature on any khodmi. Finally, I can't recall ever having seen a fuller on the stereotypical khodmi blade type. As for the hilts, those on the stereotypical khodmi type are usually kerfed to accept the tang and the blade is held to the hilt with a ferrule made of wrapped wire. I have never seen a ferrule like the one on roanoa's hilt on a khodmi. Nor have I ever seen a khodmi with a butt cap.

TVV,
Correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that the genoui was a straight bladed version of the koummya.

kahnjar1,
I do have a genoui in koummya dress that has a single edge blade.

Sincerely,
RobT

roanoa · 22nd March 2023, 01:49 AM

Sorry, guys, my bad... I missed posting one photo, an important one. So here it is showing the blade, which is 11 1/4" long and 1' wide at the ricasso. Double edge is 6 1/4". Cheers.

Sajen · 22nd March 2023, 01:51 AM

I am not sure if it is Moroccan or Algerian.

I hope our new member fennec chime in and will be able to tell us more.
I've learned that the shown daggers are all Algerian and called khodmi while the small ones with wrapped wire are called mousse. The Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lgerian&page=2 #39

Regards,
Detlef

TVV · 22nd March 2023, 01:58 AM

Here are a couple of pages from Claude's book, where he is using genoui to refer to this specific type of dagger:

There is indeed a version with a koummaya style hilt and straight blade, and Claude refers to shorter (under 40cm in length) examples as genoui, while longer ones he calls sboula.

Name: Genoui-01b.jpg
Views: 1108
Size: 144.9 KB

Name: Genoui-01b.jpg
Views: 1108
Size: 144.9 KB

Name: Genoui-02b.jpg
Views: 1090
Size: 218.6 KB

20th March 2023, 11:16 PM	#1
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Moroccan dagger?? Picked up this at a show. Not my field, but I could not pass.... I found a similar one on internet (sold a while back by Ashoka Arts) identified a Moroccan. Help???? The back is partially grooved. It has a strange (?) proof mark. Any thoughts. Thanks. Attached Images

22nd March 2023, 01:34 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Atypical for a Khodmi Duccio, While the symbol at the base of the blade appears to be something commonly seen on Algerian khodmi, both the blade and hilt of roanoa's knife appear to be atypical for a khodmi. On all of the khodmi blades I have seen, the bolster is integral with the blade and the blades are asymmetrically ground. Likewise, none of the eight blades in my modest collection have a ricasso/sharpening stop, nor can I remember seeing this feature on any khodmi. Finally, I can't recall ever having seen a fuller on the stereotypical khodmi blade type. As for the hilts, those on the stereotypical khodmi type are usually kerfed to accept the tang and the blade is held to the hilt with a ferrule made of wrapped wire. I have never seen a ferrule like the one on roanoa's hilt on a khodmi. Nor have I ever seen a khodmi with a butt cap. TVV, Correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that the genoui was a straight bladed version of the koummya. kahnjar1, I do have a genoui in koummya dress that has a single edge blade. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 22nd March 2023 at 01:45 AM. Reason: grammar & additional info

22nd March 2023, 01:49 AM	#10
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Sorry, guys, my bad... I missed posting one photo, an important one. So here it is showing the blade, which is 11 1/4" long and 1' wide at the ricasso. Double edge is 6 1/4". Cheers. Attached Images

22nd March 2023, 01:51 AM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	I am not sure if it is Moroccan or Algerian. I hope our new member fennec chime in and will be able to tell us more. I've learned that the shown daggers are all Algerian and called khodmi while the small ones with wrapped wire are called mousse. The Here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lgerian&page=2 #39 Regards, Detlef Attached Images

20th March 2023, 11:32 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Yes, it is from Morocco and it is known among collectors as "genoui". Nice dagger, congratulations, Teodor

21st March 2023, 01:53 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Algerian Blade? Hi All, The device at the base of the blade looks like a decoration commonly found on Algerian khodmi (see photos). The symbol also appears to be partially hidden by the bolster which may mean that the blade is not original to the hilt. This suspicion is heightened by the fact that both fullers also run under the bolster. An Algerian blade re-hilted in Morocco perhaps? Sincerely, RobT Attached Images Last edited by RobT; 21st March 2023 at 03:10 AM. Reason: grammar

21st March 2023, 05:23 AM	#4
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	VERY nice addition! G

21st March 2023, 07:23 AM	#5
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	Hi, Sabertache. I live in Coquitlam. Picked this up at the Chilliwack show on Sunday... Cheers.

21st March 2023, 04:41 PM	#6
Duccio Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Florence, Italy Posts: 64	Hello Roano, your new knife comes from Algeria and is called "Bou Saadi" from the name of a city where it is produced, or Khodmi; it was used by the shepherds of the Kabilya tribes to slaughter the sheep... The handle can be made of wood, or bone or horn, as I think yours is. See you soon! Duccio

22nd March 2023, 12:58 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Eric Claude in his book on swords and daggers from Morocco and Algeria has shown multiple examples of these Moroccan daggers, and he describes them as genoui. Buttin from what I recall prefers to describe them as sboula. The confusion with Algerian khodmi daggers is understandable and these knives may well have a common ancestor, such as the stiletto, but the decoration, the shape of the hilt, the blades etc are all different.

22nd March 2023, 01:58 AM	#12
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Here are a couple of pages from Claude's book, where he is using genoui to refer to this specific type of dagger: There is indeed a version with a koummaya style hilt and straight blade, and Claude refers to shorter (under 40cm in length) examples as genoui, while longer ones he calls sboula.