removing clear varnish from a old blade

[milandro]

I was wondering what is the general advice on removing varnish (why do people do this? ) from an old blade

Is there a product ( and how to apply) which would be safe enough as to protect patina and do not damage the blade (and visible layers)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

I was wondering what is the general advice on removing varnish (why do people do this? ) from an old blade

Is there a product ( and how to apply) which would be safe enough as to protect patina and do not damage the blade (and visible layers)

Hello Milandro,

It depends on the used varnish. You can try benzine (for lighters) which works well with shellac for example, acetone works by other varnish, by others turpentine. With all three liquids you can't harm the blade. By wood or other natural materials you have to try it carefully on a not visible place.
I have done it many times, don't be afraid to harm the blade.
What you do mean by patina? Dirt and rust is not patina. But some blades get over time a black surface, strictly speaking also rust, don't be removed by a cleaning like this, it will become a little bit more shiny maybe because you have washed away dirt and loose rust but it will stay black, I guess that you mean this by patina.
Attached a close-up from a blade with such a black surface and was cleaned once from a varnish.

Regards,
Detlef

[milandro]

thank you! I will try , kind regards Detlef much obliged

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Sajen

It depends on the used varnish. You can try benzine (for lighters) which works well with shellac for example, acetone works by other varnish, by others turpentine. With all three liquids you can't harm the blade. By wood or other natural materials you have to try it carefully on a not visible place.

I have a kabeala that has been varnished in its entirety, including the blade and the wood(?) of the hilt and scabbard, rattan bindings and all. It wasn't expensive, but nevertheless, what can happen to the wood with this way of cleaning, worst case scenario?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by werecow

I have a kabeala that has been varnished in its entirety, including the blade and the wood(?) of the hilt and scabbard, rattan bindings and all. It wasn't expensive, but nevertheless, what can happen to the wood with this way of cleaning, worst case scenario?

Try it carefully with one of the liquids at a not visible place, I've done it before without harming the material. When you have removed the varnish, polish it with oil, I use linseed oil and polish it with a soft cloth, normally it works without any harm to the material.

Regards,
Detlef

[werecow]

Alright, thanks for the pointers!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by werecow

Alright, thanks for the pointers!

You're welcome! BTW, it's a nice Kabeala, nice grain to the wooden handle. Attached is my own, similar example.

Regards,
Detlef

[gp]

Originally Posted by werecow

I have a kabeala that has been varnished in its entirety, including the blade and the wood(?) of the hilt and scabbard, rattan bindings and all. It wasn't expensive, but nevertheless, what can happen to the wood with this way of cleaning, worst case scenario?

send you a PM

have a nice WE

Gunar

[gp]

Originally Posted by milandro

(why do people do this? )

in many collectors fields (like ancient coins, jewelry or other products from metal;either base metal or gold and silver of a lower degree; i.e. < 500 ) one does not clean the metal as is done with blank weapons by chemicals (other than vaseline, natural oils and the likes ) as it decreases the value considerably.
One lesson I learned when collecting blank weapons and a huge difference with regards to value and cleaning an item . Not talking about patina.

Specially metal which is easily vulnerable to oxidation like iron or zinc.
In that case, dirt is cleaned by using vaseline/ oil or wax and for protection transparent nailpolish or similar varnishes are used as they protect the metal and do not effect the value. Hence I think some use varnish as a kind of protection against oxidation...

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Sajen

You're welcome! BTW, it's a nice Kabeala, nice grain to the wooden handle. Attached is my own, similar example.

Regards,
Detlef

Ah, that is almost identical! Do you have any more information on it by any chance (age, etc)?

[JoeCanada42]

I recently cleaned a Mandau, and it came out very nice, maybe it was varnished of some sort in the past. I have read that once a year ceremonialy the blade was coated with oils etc. likely that ritual was also for reasons to protect the blade

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by werecow

Ah, that is almost identical! Do you have any more information on it by any chance (age, etc)?

Kabealas are still in use on Sumba so you can find quiet recent/vintage examples in nearly identical appearance. I get my one from a friend in GB, judging by the wear and patination I guess around WWII or short before.
It was shown before in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kabeala

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

A very good indicator of good age are always the small cracks in rotan bindings,
see the attached pictures from some of my items, just use a good magnifying glass!

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

I recently cleaned a Mandau, and it came out very nice, maybe it was varnished of some sort in the past. I have read that once a year ceremonialy the blade was coated with oils etc. likely that ritual was also for reasons to protect the blade

Hello Joe, where did you read this ?

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Sajen

A very good indicator of good age are always the small cracks in rotan bindings,
see the attached pictures from some of my items, just use a good magnifying glass!

Interesting. Would varnish protect against such cracks, or do they still form regardless?

FWIW I don't expect my kabeala to be particularly old. Does the presence of varnish itself say anything about the likely (minimum) age range, or people still do that today?

[JoeCanada42]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Joe, where did you read this ?

possibly on this forum, or one of a few other websites I checked out recently.
I am Shure I read about it. something along the lines of the same time every year, almost like a holiday everyone does it. think I also heard it mentioned on Youtube... and just today actually on another sword forum I read someone talk about the sword receiving the incense and oil treatment.

[JoeCanada42]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Joe, where did you read this ?

"likely that ritual was also for reasons to protect the blade"

this I did not read or hear, this i am saying, maybe, like years upon year of dried oil could work as a laquer,

I remember it was done to keep the spirits in the blade appeased maybe, something along the lines of need to keep the sword happy or it loses it magic power, apparently they point the swords at the ground before enactment fighting to nullify the magic.

[kai]

Hello Joe,

Sounds like people are mixing things up - some just confuse islands and stuff...

And the quenching treatment with clay-covered blades is most famously known from Japan. I don't think this is documented from anywhere on Borneo...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by werecow

Interesting. Would varnish protect against such cracks, or do they still form regardless?

FWIW I don't expect my kabeala to be particularly old. Does the presence of varnish itself say anything about the likely (minimum) age range, or people still do that today?

I think that those cracks are already present when someone will coat an item. They come from age and handling.
I would place your example carefully as mid. to end 20th century, judging by the color of the wood but keep in mind that light/flash can cozen.
People coming to the most crazy ideas, I've seen shellac coated items (most of the time early collected items, to varnish with shellac was popular from end 19th to first quarter 20th century), here works benzine, this items were most of the times good preserved), chromed blades (a real horror ), many elbow grease required, items coated with clear modern varnish (every time difficult to find the good solution), the most annoying is when people "cleaned" a blade with a grinder or something else. Disgusting is a blade coated with centuries old grease.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by gp

Hence I think some use varnish as a kind of protection against oxidation...

Yes, this will be the reason!

[milandro]

well, boiling hot water did the trick!

The blade was covered with probably very old nitrocellulose lacquer or even shellac. A collector friend from Austria suggested that I tried that before the chemical way (which I wasn't too keen to undertake) and lo and behold, it worked. It came loose and I removed the deposit with a brush and now the blade is waiting to go on its journey by being treated with Warangan (it is a Bali Kris) from a local expert. Another step will be finding a nice sheath or sarong for it but that is another bridge which I will have to cross in the future.

Thanks for everyone's contribution

[milandro]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

... and just today actually on another sword forum I read someone talk about the sword receiving the incense and oil treatment.

Blades from Indonesia MAY be treated with incense ( as a part of a ritual, incense is thought the world , frankincense is after all a form of it, used to carry an offer to the heavens) and then treated with perfumed oils, the oil of course served the purpose to keep the blade from rusting AND the addition of a fragrance is another form of offering to the powers beyond human.

More worldly form is to treat the blades with things like Balistol or Singer sewing machine oil (with or without a scent).