A Coronado gun

Lead Snowstorm · 22nd February 2023, 11:33 PM

The latest issue of American Rifleman (March 2023) had an article, perhaps of interest here, regarding an archeological find from the American Southwest. (My apologies for the quality of the scans, from my phone - the individual pages are attached due to file size restriction.)

I am particularly intrigued by the suggestion that the piece may be of New World manufacture.

fernando · 23rd February 2023, 10:03 AM

Let us see if we can convert those PDF's into JPG format.

.

Lead Snowstorm · 25th February 2023, 05:24 PM

Excellent, thank you for converting the pages!

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2023, 05:52 PM

Fernando, thank you so much for extracting these pages from the link and posting them for ease in reading this fascinating article. The author notes that the conservation and analysis of this gun hopes to determine if it was forged in Mexico or in Spain.
While these rampart guns could of course be forged in a relatively conservative blacksmith setting, it remains in my opinion too complex of a job to have been done in these early times in Mexico. There was a notable absence of highly skilled armorers in these early expeditions, and those who had some skill in blacksmithing were limited as well as other tradesmen typically found on vessels.

This type of rampart gun was also of the type that became 'deck guns' aboard ships, and most likely this was taken from the vessel the expedition arrived on.
These guns often remained in use for not only generations, but even into centuries as did most artillery pieces. It was not uncommon to find various cannon etc. used in emplacements in settlements, but unusual to find such a heavy gun carried in a mobile expedition.

cannonmn · 26th February 2023, 03:51 PM

There was one comment mentioning forging and blacksmiths. The article’s brief description mentions cast bronze. I’d guess since this discovery, if 100% accurate as described, would rewrite a fair amount of history, and there would be articles in archeological journals, which I’d like to read to get the big picture here. I’d be interested in seeing a lab analysis of the bronze, as this would tell us a lot.

fernando · 26th February 2023, 08:24 PM

Jim, my surprise doesn't go for the carrying along this gun. A healthy man (not an old dude like us both) can easily carry 40 pounds on his shoulder; not to mention they had the mules to do it. Besides, it is plausible that Coronado, leaving men behind to fortify some spots, had them equiped with such useful wall guns, not yet so anachronic due to its earlier generation, as you well suggest.
What intrigues is this mixing between haquebuts (wall guns) typology and versos (from the Portuguese berços) which is completely another thing; berços are breach loaders, for a start.
I ignore whether the article author was advised by metallurgists, as to infer that the lack of lead made the gun to have been cast in the New World. I heard that lead is only a small (if ever) fraction of bronze composition.
Doesn't it look more likely that these guns were shipped from Spain with the Coronado arsenal ?
Appologies for my ignaro approach

.

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cannonmn · 3rd March 2023, 02:02 PM

Deleted by author

fernando · 3rd March 2023, 04:50 PM

Judging by the relative position of the barrel hook, there sure was an extension in its back, which could well be an aiming aid tiller. However the pierced hole in the said hook suggests the previous presence of a (wooden) stock, although the lack of a further couple pierced lugs on the barrel disputes such probability. I realize that the absency of a lock does not necessaily mean that a stock should have existed; one may shoot an early gun by having a partner (or himself) to ignite the pan by manually approaching the pan with the match cord or the the hot iron.
We know that often weapons undergo one or more modifications during their life. Could it be that a possible stock, for whatever reason, was discarded whilst the gun was still in use.
On the other hand, admiting that this thing had already seen its best days and was currently used a non weapon tool, still occupies one's imagination. To remember that, according to chronicles, two of six of such devices were left behind with some men, for operational purposes. Could this one end up being the criplled unit, for whatever reason.
Just for the fun, see attached a picture extrated from a Spanish military history blog, labeled as primitive XV century Arcabus de Gancho (literaly haquebut) designed to use in walls. And a brighter picture of the Coronado gun, in the hands of its finder (Courtesy Tucson.com)

cannonmn · 3rd March 2023, 11:14 PM

I cast doubt on the copper tube being a weapon in usable condition, and got more info in Bill’s reply here, so their claims seem more credible now.

“By the way, I wrote the article. There were no uderlugs on the barrel for the attachment of a half, or full-length stock. There was likewise no tang. Check out the drawing in the article from Maximillian 's arsenal inventory in 1501 that shows them with tillers and no locks. The gunner is shooting it with a handheld match. Yes, some hackbuts had stocks, but they had underlugs and/or tangs to secure the barrel to the wood. We had the foremost crime lab firearms expert examine the piece for toolmarks, as well as the expert who was in charge of the relics recovered from the Custer battlefield, and both said that the marks on the gun, including the dings on the muzzle, were from transporting it over 1500 miles on the back of a mule. It was banging on saddle nails, iron buckles, picket pins, etc,. which is shown from repetitive dings in the same spot. The photo of the muzzle is deceptive, because the gun was/is still imminently shootable. I have been shooting muzzleloaders for over 50 years and tried to talk the archaeologist into letting me shoot it, with no luck. Ha!! I could also shoot it without the tiller with no problem whatsoever, given the weight of the piece, especially if the powder charge was reduced a bit. It could also have even been transported much further than 1500 miles if it was originally cast for the Cortez expedition some 20 years earlier. Hence more dings. We know he cast many guns of all sizes in Mexico, and I read somewhere that a gun foundry was firmly established in 1526. Finally, the bore was full of dirt when recovered, and we analyzed that dirt in sections. There were flakes of carbon in the breech from having been fired previously.

Take care,

Bill Mapoles”

fernando · 4th March 2023, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the enlightening input. Glad that some of my uneducated guessings were somehow close from reality. As for 'with or without' a tiller, Bill says they found none; this doesn't exclude there has been one, or some kind of it ... just saying.
As for Cortez, we know that according to his letters (Cartas de Relacion) to the King, he mentions that he arrived with sixteen cannons of diferents sizes and four small naval cannons, called falconetes. Yet in is fourth letter (1524) he wrote that he was smelting bronze cannons from scratch in Tenoctitlan and Tlaxcala. So it is plausible Bill's assumption that the gun being discussed could has its origins in such foundries, as Cortez initial arsenal didn't include such typology

23rd February 2023, 10:03 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us see if we can convert those PDF's into JPG format. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 26th February 2023 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Resizing the last picture

26th February 2023, 03:51 PM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Hackbut There was one comment mentioning forging and blacksmiths. The article’s brief description mentions cast bronze. I’d guess since this discovery, if 100% accurate as described, would rewrite a fair amount of history, and there would be articles in archeological journals, which I’d like to read to get the big picture here. I’d be interested in seeing a lab analysis of the bronze, as this would tell us a lot.

26th February 2023, 08:24 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, my surprise doesn't go for the carrying along this gun. A healthy man (not an old dude like us both) can easily carry 40 pounds on his shoulder; not to mention they had the mules to do it. Besides, it is plausible that Coronado, leaving men behind to fortify some spots, had them equiped with such useful wall guns, not yet so anachronic due to its earlier generation, as you well suggest. What intrigues is this mixing between haquebuts (wall guns) typology and versos (from the Portuguese berços) which is completely another thing; berços are breach loaders, for a start. I ignore whether the article author was advised by metallurgists, as to infer that the lack of lead made the gun to have been cast in the New World. I heard that lead is only a small (if ever) fraction of bronze composition. Doesn't it look more likely that these guns were shipped from Spain with the Coronado arsenal ? Appologies for my ignaro approach . . Last edited by fernando; 27th February 2023 at 01:49 PM. Reason: correction/ s

3rd March 2023, 02:02 PM	#7
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Item not in use as weapon at the time Deleted by author Last edited by cannonmn; 3rd March 2023 at 11:08 PM.

3rd March 2023, 04:50 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There are guns ... and guns ! Judging by the relative position of the barrel hook, there sure was an extension in its back, which could well be an aiming aid tiller. However the pierced hole in the said hook suggests the previous presence of a (wooden) stock, although the lack of a further couple pierced lugs on the barrel disputes such probability. I realize that the absency of a lock does not necessaily mean that a stock should have existed; one may shoot an early gun by having a partner (or himself) to ignite the pan by manually approaching the pan with the match cord or the the hot iron. We know that often weapons undergo one or more modifications during their life. Could it be that a possible stock, for whatever reason, was discarded whilst the gun was still in use. On the other hand, admiting that this thing had already seen its best days and was currently used a non weapon tool, still occupies one's imagination. To remember that, according to chronicles, two of six of such devices were left behind with some men, for operational purposes. Could this one end up being the criplled unit, for whatever reason. Just for the fun, see attached a picture extrated from a Spanish military history blog, labeled as primitive XV century Arcabus de Gancho (literaly haquebut) designed to use in walls. And a brighter picture of the Coronado gun, in the hands of its finder (Courtesy Tucson.com) Attached Images

25th February 2023, 05:24 PM	#3
Lead Snowstorm Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 15	Excellent, thank you for converting the pages!

25th February 2023, 05:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Fernando, thank you so much for extracting these pages from the link and posting them for ease in reading this fascinating article. The author notes that the conservation and analysis of this gun hopes to determine if it was forged in Mexico or in Spain. While these rampart guns could of course be forged in a relatively conservative blacksmith setting, it remains in my opinion too complex of a job to have been done in these early times in Mexico. There was a notable absence of highly skilled armorers in these early expeditions, and those who had some skill in blacksmithing were limited as well as other tradesmen typically found on vessels. This type of rampart gun was also of the type that became 'deck guns' aboard ships, and most likely this was taken from the vessel the expedition arrived on. These guns often remained in use for not only generations, but even into centuries as did most artillery pieces. It was not uncommon to find various cannon etc. used in emplacements in settlements, but unusual to find such a heavy gun carried in a mobile expedition.

3rd March 2023, 11:14 PM	#9
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	More info from author I cast doubt on the copper tube being a weapon in usable condition, and got more info in Bill’s reply here, so their claims seem more credible now. “By the way, I wrote the article. There were no uderlugs on the barrel for the attachment of a half, or full-length stock. There was likewise no tang. Check out the drawing in the article from Maximillian 's arsenal inventory in 1501 that shows them with tillers and no locks. The gunner is shooting it with a handheld match. Yes, some hackbuts had stocks, but they had underlugs and/or tangs to secure the barrel to the wood. We had the foremost crime lab firearms expert examine the piece for toolmarks, as well as the expert who was in charge of the relics recovered from the Custer battlefield, and both said that the marks on the gun, including the dings on the muzzle, were from transporting it over 1500 miles on the back of a mule. It was banging on saddle nails, iron buckles, picket pins, etc,. which is shown from repetitive dings in the same spot. The photo of the muzzle is deceptive, because the gun was/is still imminently shootable. I have been shooting muzzleloaders for over 50 years and tried to talk the archaeologist into letting me shoot it, with no luck. Ha!! I could also shoot it without the tiller with no problem whatsoever, given the weight of the piece, especially if the powder charge was reduced a bit. It could also have even been transported much further than 1500 miles if it was originally cast for the Cortez expedition some 20 years earlier. Hence more dings. We know he cast many guns of all sizes in Mexico, and I read somewhere that a gun foundry was firmly established in 1526. Finally, the bore was full of dirt when recovered, and we analyzed that dirt in sections. There were flakes of carbon in the breech from having been fired previously. Take care, Bill Mapoles”

4th March 2023, 12:07 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the enlightening input. Glad that some of my uneducated guessings were somehow close from reality. As for 'with or without' a tiller, Bill says they found none; this doesn't exclude there has been one, or some kind of it ... just saying. As for Cortez, we know that according to his letters (Cartas de Relacion) to the King, he mentions that he arrived with sixteen cannons of diferents sizes and four small naval cannons, called falconetes. Yet in is fourth letter (1524) he wrote that he was smelting bronze cannons from scratch in Tenoctitlan and Tlaxcala. So it is plausible Bill's assumption that the gun being discussed could has its origins in such foundries, as Cortez initial arsenal didn't include such typology