short Italian Rapier?

SwordLover79 · 9th February 2023, 05:36 PM

Hello; I recently purchased this short sword. 31 1/4" blade and 38 inches overall. The pommel, quillons and ring guard are decorated with Roman or Greek faces in silver (I think). The blade is marked on both sides "XX FRIDERICO PICININO XX" and an arrowhead and line through a circle. So...is this a short rapier? a riding sword? Italian? Approximate date of manufacture? Any insights are appreciated...

Merenti · 10th February 2023, 08:09 AM

you're right about Italy. it's a pillow sword around 1600. A beautiful piece that I would also like to have in my collection!

cornelistromp · 10th February 2023, 08:57 AM

it is not a rapier, a rapier has a minimum length of 112cm to be a rapier.
It is a beautiful silver encrusted transitional sword from between 1645-1655, maybe Dutch.
A shortened rapier blade is used for this smallsword. Many transitional (small-)swords have a shortened rapier blade. FREDERICO PICININO was often written in the fuller as a quality indication, it does not mean that Picinino manufactured this blade.
If so...... there should be his oval mark of "a tower" and the text around "Picinino" at the ricasso , ps Nice to see the encrusting over the ricasso.
May have been slightly longer initially, but need not be, a length of around 1 m was quite common.

very nice quality sword

best
Jasper

kronckew · 10th February 2023, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it is not a rapier, a rapier has a minimum length of 112cm to be a rapier....

best
Jasper

Where did you get your definition of a "rapier's" minimum length?

cornelistromp · 11th February 2023, 08:20 AM

JP puype mentioned it to me during a discussion about rapiers but I believe it is in one of his publications, his reference was some 16/17th century fencing book that mentions this minimum size.

best,
Jasper

kronckew · 11th February 2023, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

JP puype mentioned it to me during a discussion about rapiers but I believe it is in one of his publications, his reference was some 16/17th century fencing book that mentions this minimum size.

best,
Jasper

That seems a bit arbitrary and inflexible, and hardly a universal Standard set in stone & immortalized by an irridium bar kept in a vacuum at 20c.

Even Wiki (and google) mentions an 'average' length of 104cm.

cornelistromp · 11th February 2023, 02:56 PM

It is splitting hairs and I'm happy with any length but what google and wikipedia say about it is about the length that we now measure of what we consider a rapier today.

I'll ask Jp puype the reference when I meet him again.
what I shortly could find about rapier lengths is:
Sir John Smithe refers in "Instructions, observations and orders mylitarie" 1595 - the rapier blade has a length of 1yard and a quarter and more. (bl+114cm)
George Silver Paradoxes of defence, London 1599 does not specifically state rapier length but does state sword blade length for men of tall statures of, a yard and three or foure inches, and no more. (+- 1 meter max).
In his opinion Rapiers were longer and could not be used in battle.
Together with the grip and pommel this comes to about 112cm allover length max. for swords and rapier to be longer.

best,
Jasper

SwordLover79 · 11th February 2023, 07:51 PM

Guys - is there any chance this might be a child's sword given it's length?

fernando · 11th February 2023, 08:47 PM

How about a rapier length to be according to its owner stature. I hear that the ideal length is that in the quillons (crossbar) come up to your belly button, when the point is resting on the floor; between 99 cms. and 114 cms. total length. Just because a little fellow looks to have a sword proportional to his best handling, such would not demoted from the rapier typology.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2023, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

How about a rapier length to be according to its owner stature. I hear that the ideal length is that in the quillons (crossbar) come up to your belly button, when the point is resting on the floor; between 99 cms. and 114 cms. total length. Just because a little fellow looks to have a sword proportional to his best handling, such would not demoted from the rapier typology.

Thats a very good point Fernando. Swords of this character were typically commissioned to a cutler who would fashion it in accord with specifications.
As far as I have understood the only specifications setting standard for sword blade length were those prohibiting excessive length rapier blades.
The notion of a minimum standard may have been a convention in cases as noted by Mr. Puype.

9th February 2023, 05:36 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	short Italian Rapier? Hello; I recently purchased this short sword. 31 1/4" blade and 38 inches overall. The pommel, quillons and ring guard are decorated with Roman or Greek faces in silver (I think). The blade is marked on both sides "XX FRIDERICO PICININO XX" and an arrowhead and line through a circle. So...is this a short rapier? a riding sword? Italian? Approximate date of manufacture? Any insights are appreciated... Attached Images

10th February 2023, 08:57 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	it is not a rapier, a rapier has a minimum length of 112cm to be a rapier. It is a beautiful silver encrusted transitional sword from between 1645-1655, maybe Dutch. A shortened rapier blade is used for this smallsword. Many transitional (small-)swords have a shortened rapier blade. FREDERICO PICININO was often written in the fuller as a quality indication, it does not mean that Picinino manufactured this blade. If so...... there should be his oval mark of "a tower" and the text around "Picinino" at the ricasso , ps Nice to see the encrusting over the ricasso. May have been slightly longer initially, but need not be, a length of around 1 m was quite common. very nice quality sword best Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 10th February 2023 at 02:56 PM.

11th February 2023, 08:20 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	JP puype mentioned it to me during a discussion about rapiers but I believe it is in one of his publications, his reference was some 16/17th century fencing book that mentions this minimum size. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 11th February 2023 at 09:10 AM.

11th February 2023, 07:51 PM	#8
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	still gathering feedback... Guys - is there any chance this might be a child's sword given it's length?

10th February 2023, 08:09 AM	#2
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 67	you're right about Italy. it's a pillow sword around 1600. A beautiful piece that I would also like to have in my collection!

11th February 2023, 02:56 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	It is splitting hairs and I'm happy with any length but what google and wikipedia say about it is about the length that we now measure of what we consider a rapier today. I'll ask Jp puype the reference when I meet him again. what I shortly could find about rapier lengths is: Sir John Smithe refers in "Instructions, observations and orders mylitarie" 1595 - the rapier blade has a length of 1yard and a quarter and more. (bl+114cm) George Silver Paradoxes of defence, London 1599 does not specifically state rapier length but does state sword blade length for men of tall statures of, a yard and three or foure inches, and no more. (+- 1 meter max). In his opinion Rapiers were longer and could not be used in battle. Together with the grip and pommel this comes to about 112cm allover length max. for swords and rapier to be longer. best, Jasper

11th February 2023, 08:47 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How about a rapier length to be according to its owner stature. I hear that the ideal length is that in the quillons (crossbar) come up to your belly button, when the point is resting on the floor; between 99 cms. and 114 cms. total length. Just because a little fellow looks to have a sword proportional to his best handling, such would not demoted from the rapier typology.