THE BORDER REIVERS.

Peter Hudson · 4th February 2023, 02:36 PM

Secrecy, subterfuge and spin doctoring were part of the Tudor program as well as being employed later ... People vanished and executions took place all over the shop... The big names in the lying game were those with a close connection to the rulers and Sir Walter Scott was certainly up there with the best of them..even though he didnt appear for a few hundred years after the event he is creditted with actually inventing the name of the wars... The Wars of the Roses... The biggest spin doctor in Tudor times was William Shakespeare who had carte blanche to write anything he liked (or rather, the Tudors liked) . This we now call "propaganda".

For utter and total lies and myths simply look at The Wars of The Roses which were largely inventions of the various muddle of lies where one side having run out of arrows took to throwing black puddings at the enemy whilst the others replied it is said by pelting them back with Yorkshire puddings. Much poisoned ink flowed through other exponents of this technique and Richard 111 falls into that category.

Here is a great video presentation on this very subject.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bs0hn The Title is revealing .. The Biggest Fibs in British History. And among that lot are the many lies and twists of the Border Riever story during which many people were hung or had their heads removed on the block or were simply drowned...often based on heresay or lies or complex stories passed by laws but often without trial...I believe this resulted in a complete erosion of trust in the Borders and locked the doors on the idea of these warriors ever becoming part of the ORBAT in The English Cavalry.

Peter Hudson · 25th September 2023, 07:56 PM

Some detail on the Marquis of Newcastle... thus a better understanding of what happened to the idea of Border Rievers and their potential as English Cavalry...

From The Web...William Cavendish
William Cavendish, Marquis of Newcastle, 1593-1676. Cultured aristocrat who became commander of Royalist forces in the north of England during 1642-4. He lost heart and went into exile after his defeat at Marston Moor.

At Marsden Moor in 1644 the Duke of Newcastle .. William Cavendish fielded about 2000 to 3000 soldiers... mainly dismounted infantry who were essentaially wiped out by a Scotish surge ... It is interesting to note that Sir Walter Scott Two Centuries later spoke of the Royalist contingent of The Marquis of Newcastle (The Whitecoats) were somehow absorbed into the English Cavalry and that at some point Queen Elizabeth 1 may have been impressed by their cavalry skills and they were the finest horsemen in Europe Etc Etc...

The Duke of Newcstle as preferring to die rather than surrender whereas that may not be quite how or why it happened because the attack on the Whitecoats was done by a group who were not only made up of Scottish soldiers but a large contingent of men from Sunderland.

On the map Sunderland and Newcastle are quite close however they didnt get on well...In fact they hated each other and indeed the Sunderland contingent were Covenanters... So not only were the Whitecoats outnumbered and on foot... but they faced an enemy which despised them greatly.

So it was that a long time after the battle In the 19th C. Sir Walter Scott wrote that detail ... in his self appointed role as latter day Tudor spin doctor ...See above detail in bold letters... Simply not true.

What seems to further confuse matters is that The leader of the Whitecoats then ran away to Europe and though he did return later he had no part in reorganising the Whitecoats ... He had in fact been an excellent trainer and exponent of Cavalry and Equestrian expertise but was not further involved in Cavalry doctrine or training. In fact another serious blow to English Cavalry selection was the fact that although there were Border Rievers who had been involved in European wars as members of English contingents ..that once these had reurned home they were demobbed immediately and thus took no further part in the story. The build up and aftermath of Culloden and the persecution of Border Rievers ...It was illegal to have a Galloway horse and Borderers could be executed even on suspicion of being a Riever...without trial...further diminished the chances of them being somehow included in the English Cavalry Orbat...It never happened.

Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 29th September 2023, 07:27 PM

I read a good report on the English Civil Wars at https://www.worldhistory.org/article...sh-civil-wars/

I note the English Cavalry information...however that the detail and reasoning for following up the potential use of Border Riever cavalry is basically absent following the 1644 Battle Of Marsden Moor. After this it appears that history is absorbed into the thick fog of subterfuge and myth...taking with it a failure to use the Border Riever expertise using the sturdy Galloway Horses or to incorporate these and their tough Border Rievers into English Cavalry Orbat.

Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman · 29th September 2023, 08:20 PM

Hi Peter. That is a good article: five minutes reading and I learned all about militia ranks and file. Thank-you.

Peter Hudson · 29th September 2023, 08:59 PM

Hello Kieth, I dug up another great reference at https://archive.org/details/lifewill...p?view=theater covering the life of William Cavendish the Marquis of Newcastle which ties together his part in the Battle of Marsdon Moor as well as his distinction in raising several thousand mounted infantry known as The Whitecoats... ]

Peter.

urbanspaceman · 3rd October 2023, 11:49 AM

A wonderful dissertation; thanks Peter.

Peter Hudson · 5th October 2023, 02:50 AM

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4th February 2023, 02:36 PM	#1
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Secrecy, subterfuge and spin doctoring were part of the Tudor program as well as being employed later ... People vanished and executions took place all over the shop... The big names in the lying game were those with a close connection to the rulers and Sir Walter Scott was certainly up there with the best of them..even though he didnt appear for a few hundred years after the event he is creditted with actually inventing the name of the wars... The Wars of the Roses... The biggest spin doctor in Tudor times was William Shakespeare who had carte blanche to write anything he liked (or rather, the Tudors liked) . This we now call "propaganda". For utter and total lies and myths simply look at The Wars of The Roses which were largely inventions of the various muddle of lies where one side having run out of arrows took to throwing black puddings at the enemy whilst the others replied it is said by pelting them back with Yorkshire puddings. Much poisoned ink flowed through other exponents of this technique and Richard 111 falls into that category. Here is a great video presentation on this very subject.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bs0hn The Title is revealing .. The Biggest Fibs in British History. And among that lot are the many lies and twists of the Border Riever story during which many people were hung or had their heads removed on the block or were simply drowned...often based on heresay or lies or complex stories passed by laws but often without trial...I believe this resulted in a complete erosion of trust in the Borders and locked the doors on the idea of these warriors ever becoming part of the ORBAT in The English Cavalry. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 4th February 2023 at 07:17 PM.

25th September 2023, 07:56 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Why didnt The Whitecoats get absorbed into The English Cavalry. Some detail on the Marquis of Newcastle... thus a better understanding of what happened to the idea of Border Rievers and their potential as English Cavalry... From The Web...William Cavendish William Cavendish, Marquis of Newcastle, 1593-1676. Cultured aristocrat who became commander of Royalist forces in the north of England during 1642-4. He lost heart and went into exile after his defeat at Marston Moor. At Marsden Moor in 1644 the Duke of Newcastle .. William Cavendish fielded about 2000 to 3000 soldiers... mainly dismounted infantry who were essentaially wiped out by a Scotish surge ... It is interesting to note that Sir Walter Scott Two Centuries later spoke of the Royalist contingent of The Marquis of Newcastle (The Whitecoats) were somehow absorbed into the English Cavalry and that at some point Queen Elizabeth 1 may have been impressed by their cavalry skills and they were the finest horsemen in Europe Etc Etc... The Duke of Newcstle as preferring to die rather than surrender whereas that may not be quite how or why it happened because the attack on the Whitecoats was done by a group who were not only made up of Scottish soldiers but a large contingent of men from Sunderland. On the map Sunderland and Newcastle are quite close however they didnt get on well...In fact they hated each other and indeed the Sunderland contingent were Covenanters... So not only were the Whitecoats outnumbered and on foot... but they faced an enemy which despised them greatly. So it was that a long time after the battle In the 19th C. Sir Walter Scott wrote that detail ... in his self appointed role as latter day Tudor spin doctor ...See above detail in bold letters... Simply not true. What seems to further confuse matters is that The leader of the Whitecoats then ran away to Europe and though he did return later he had no part in reorganising the Whitecoats ... He had in fact been an excellent trainer and exponent of Cavalry and Equestrian expertise but was not further involved in Cavalry doctrine or training. In fact another serious blow to English Cavalry selection was the fact that although there were Border Rievers who had been involved in European wars as members of English contingents ..that once these had reurned home they were demobbed immediately and thus took no further part in the story. The build up and aftermath of Culloden and the persecution of Border Rievers ...It was illegal to have a Galloway horse and Borderers could be executed even on suspicion of being a Riever...without trial...further diminished the chances of them being somehow included in the English Cavalry Orbat...It never happened. Peter Hudson.

29th September 2023, 08:20 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	Civil War Hi Peter. That is a good article: five minutes reading and I learned all about militia ranks and file. Thank-you.

3rd October 2023, 11:49 AM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	Cavendish A wonderful dissertation; thanks Peter.

5th October 2023, 02:50 AM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Another Border Reivers Map.

29th September 2023, 07:27 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	I read a good report on the English Civil Wars at https://www.worldhistory.org/article...sh-civil-wars/ I note the English Cavalry information...however that the detail and reasoning for following up the potential use of Border Riever cavalry is basically absent following the 1644 Battle Of Marsden Moor. After this it appears that history is absorbed into the thick fog of subterfuge and myth...taking with it a failure to use the Border Riever expertise using the sturdy Galloway Horses or to incorporate these and their tough Border Rievers into English Cavalry Orbat. Peter Hudson.

29th September 2023, 08:59 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Hello Kieth, I dug up another great reference at https://archive.org/details/lifewill...p?view=theater covering the life of William Cavendish the Marquis of Newcastle which ties together his part in the Battle of Marsdon Moor as well as his distinction in raising several thousand mounted infantry known as The Whitecoats... ] Peter.