Coyness in posting keris pics

[Anthony G.]

This is what I have experienced personally where your keris photo has been used by scammers who use it to scam unaware victims who thinks the keris belongs to the scammers.

After paying for it, the scammers just disappear.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Sid, most collectors do not have problems with showing their acquisitions to whomever may wish to look.

That is exactly what I said in post #2:-

"The pure collectors are usually more than happy to display their possessions, whereas the people who are students of the keris and who have learnt that the etiquette in most, if not all keris bearing cultures is to keep those keris that they regard as personal keris hidden from the eyes of strangers."

The people who do not want to display their keris are those who are culturally conscious. Very often they are people who have had some contact with the culture, and/or society of the places where keris are viewed as sacred objects, iconic objects, religious objects. In my own case, I have many years of contact with members of Javanese & Balinese society, I have been instructed at length in the correct way to behave over many years by people whom I respect and who in turn respect me. I would not ever betray the trust that my friends and teachers have placed in me.

But an ordinary collector, especially a collector in a society that is outside the core society of origin of the keris does not bear the obligations that I, and some other people bear. A pure collector rarely knows very much about what he collects, many collectors of keris feel very satisfied with their level of knowledge if they can identify a Surakarta keris as distinct from a Jogja keris.

I can see no real reason why a collector who only focuses on names and physical attributes of keris should hide his keris from other people.

Essentially Sid, whether to show or not to show is a personal decision once we move outside the society of origin, if one is comfortable with letting everybody in the entire world seeing what they lock into their double dial Chubb safe in the security room, then by all means go ahead and show. Those who are not comfortable with letting anybody except close friends look at what they have, well then, of course they will act a trifle more conservatively.

Personal decision Sid:- do it or don't do it, its up to you.

[milandro]

I have come across this a couple of times outside of this forum ( on the forum I have also read , can't remember were exactly or by whom, that some members weren't inclined to show their own " private" kris' images and I certainly respect that.)

However I came across a couple of times people selling their kris and showing it only sheathed, now that, frankly, I don't understand.

I tried to say to them that logic, would demand that if I were to purchase, especially at a distance, a kris, I would need to look at the blade.

The answer was that they were told that it was bad luck to show a kris' blade.

[David]

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

[A. G. Maisey]

You seem to be in a different, but somewhat similar position to my own David.

Sometimes I would very much like to show a photo of something in order to provide clarification, but I do not do this simply because I know it is something that would be frowned upon by a number of people and for those people it would mark me as a pretender.

But I do show keris from my personal collection when I have decided to move that keris to a new owner. When this happens I move the keris to items identified for sale, rather than items identified for collection.

There is another reason that some people do not like showing collection items in a place where strangers can see those things, and this applies not only to collectors of keris.

It is the same reason that they do not show items of jewellery or other valuables, the same reason why they maintain a security room, the same reason why they instal a safe, the same reason why they make sure that their home address is removed from public records.

[David]

One other reason some folks avoid posting their keris, especially multiple detailed images, is to keep unscrupulous characters from stealing those photos and attempting to sell keris they do not possess to unwary collectors. This is a common scam.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I've heard of this David, but I've never encountered it, I have an almost invisible presence on social media --- more now than I have previously held --- & I do not buy on the internet.

But I do not for a moment doubt that it does happen, if there is a way to scam in any field, the scamsters will find it.

We can put as many controls as we like into a system, and eventually a control will pick up a scam, but it is is often the detective control, rather than the preventive control that picks up the scam.

The bad guys are nearly always one step ahead.

Ever heard of Bernie Madoff?

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

Hi David, my good friend. Could you be so kind to break out the comments in paragraphs so that making reading easily. Thanks

[Green]

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree completely Green.

Absolutely a personal choice.

However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris.

The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display.

In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display.

Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property.

Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale.

But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child.

So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

I believe it might be a little bit difficult to know what keris at one of these exhibitions were actually "pusaka" in the truest sense of the word. It seems to me that in the last decade or so this word has lost much of its original meaning. Keris that were once held as pusaka, but since released, are presented for sale as a "pusaka" keris. This confuses me because i do not understand how a keris that has been released from its kinship group can still be regarded as a pusaka keris. Many dealers these days present every antique keris they are selling as "pusaka". But how can i buy someone else pusaka keris and then say that i own a pusaka keris? If i am not part of the original kinship group how can this keris rightfully still be called pusaka once it joins my collection.
I have never understood the concept of presenting antique keris in a competitive format. New keris, yes, i can see that. Who and what are these competitions rewarding for "best" keris. A long dead empu? While i can certainly see contemporary smiths competing for best in show with their newly made blades, pitting old blades against each other makes little sense to me. It seems that the honour of winning first place in a contest of antique keris is really an award for one's financial status and ability to afford the very best in high end antique keris. Or perhaps it is an award for being clever enough to be in the right place at the right time to be able to obtain such keris. Either way, it is has nothing to do with any particular skill set possessed by the current custodian of the keris.
Considering the keris as an art form, i have always had difficulty judging one piece of art against another. Once you reach a certain level of quality art becomes rather subjective. And if we are indeed talking about people competing with their personal pusaka, keris that actually hold kinship lineage going back generations in one's family, i personally find the idea of judging one person's pusaka against another rather distasteful. But as you say, this is a personal preference.
But no, Nik, i don't believe prohibitions against showing your personal keris to strangers of in public places is in any way the general practice throughout all keris bearing cultures. Alan's preferences are formed based upon the practices of a relatively small group of people. Customs regarding keris have changed greatly as the keris has moved away from it's origin centers.
That said i believe that the vast majority of keris that we see presented in public spaces as "pusaka" are not really pusaka in the original sense of the word. But if one does indeed wish to present the symbol of their family lineage on display the entire world that is indeed their right.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

David I agree with you on the point of certain folk showing off their stuff on other forums. Its the attempt at one upmanship to rapidly build up some degree of credibility and rise up the ranks in these forums especially in the case of folk aspiring to gain commercially by emulating successful dealers. The prices they charge then funnily are also ridicilously steep. Its a ploy to build a profile and image to market oneself and ones products to maximise gain.

[A. G. Maisey]

Keris, tombak and other items of tosan aji are regarded as having protective qualities.

When they are on display in a traditional Javanese home they are usually put in a strategic position that the people living in that home believe will protect the home & themselves from evil.

Blawongs were & are wall decorations, sometimes intended just as a decoration, like a painting or framed picture, sometimes because the people living in the house regard the blawong& its motif as protective. This is very much the case in rural Central Jawa.

Somewhere along the way people started to combine the protective qualities of the blawong with the protective qualities of the keris. Blawongs were not originally intended to display keris.

As for the ploncon/jagrak, Sid is dead right when he says that display of keris dress is totally different to display of the keris itself. There can be a number of reasons why easily reachable keris could be considered a good idea.

For instance, let's say you are a Javanese gentleman dressed in full traditional attire, you're on your way to a wedding, or a party or some other event, you call in to have a yarn with your mate along the way.

It is not possible to sit comfortably in a normal lounge chair with a wangkingan stuck in the back of your setagen, so you remove it, then what do you do with it?

If your mate has a ploncon in his front room, you put the keris into that, and when you're leaving you turn it into a wangkingan again.

Then we have dealers:- they need some way to display what they are selling. Keris dress is fragile, a ploncon helps to prevent damage.

What I've written relates to Javanese keris, but what about the little statues that are used to hold Balinese keris?

These were originally placed on the front verandah next to the front door, a visitor placed his keris into the holder when entered the house or sat.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sid, I think your post #36 is close to the mark from one perspective, but long, long before the internet came along, collectors and students of the keris, and just about everything else collectable were going along to periodic meetings and taking their favourite or recent possessions along to show other people. Sometimes there might have been an element of flamboyance & self aggrandizement, but I feel that it was mostly just interested people associating with other interested people.

Exhibitions still happen, apart from keris I have other interests --- watches, paper weights, sea shells, gemstones, ancient coins & etc &etc --- when the opportunity arises I go along to exhibitions of these sorts of things, really, for no other purpose than just to look at them, because I like looking at them.

With keris it is a wee bit different:- we are dealing with a cultural icon that has sacred elements. I feel that the people who understand this are more often than not inclined to to be somewhat conservative with the items they are prepared to display, but the pure collector who has little or no interest in the back story of the keris is interested in other qualities and all the baggage that the keris carries is of little interest to him.

Yeah, for sure sometimes the dealers get out there and wave things around to try to raise interest, but it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what a fair price is for the item he wishes to buy, and many things can affect a fair price.

I recently paid around 6K more for a used motor vehicle than was recognised as the going rate for that particular vehicle, year & model. I reckon I got a bargain. Why? This was the legendary ten year old vehicle that had only been driven to church on Sundays by the legendary Little Old Lady. It was still in showroom condition with exceptionally low mileage.

Lots of things can affect a price of anything, a buyer needs to know what he is doing, he needs to strive to know as much or more than the dealers.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by David

Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors.

I completely agreed with you David, the reason why I've posted keris in this forum is because I've found this forum like some sort of sanctuary where members can give feedbacks/comments unbiased and without ulterior motive which I hope can increase my knowledge.

[SidJ]

I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

Interesting thought. I don't think collectors in general give enough thought to the differences in keris tradition between Hindu and Islamic times, or for that matter, between all eras of keris use.
However, i am not sure we can point to a display of keris in old Hindu temple reliefs. Firstly, when keris blades are on display in old temple reliefs, they are generally showing keris in use. It is not simply a display of the blade as if to say, "hey, look at my keris blade". Secondly, that's art, so it is a bit removed from someones personal pusaka keris. It's just an artistic depiction.
I am not too sure on how this is seen historically or in present day Bali. The first thing that comes to mind regarding display a keris blade in Bali is the keris dance element of the Barong Dance. In the modern era this is mostly done as a performance for tourists. Certainly it originally had a more ritual/ceremonial element, but today it is mostly theatre. Which is not to say that actual trance states do not still occur. But i don't think it is likely that the keris the dancers use in these performances are their personal pusaka. So again, this might not be the best example to show that displaying your keris in public is considered proper.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

I have come across this a couple of times outside of this forum ( on the forum I have also read , can't remember were exactly or by whom, that some members weren't inclined to show their own " private" kris' images and I certainly respect that.)

However I came across a couple of times people selling their kris and showing it only sheathed, now that, frankly, I don't understand.

I tried to say to them that logic, would demand that if I were to purchase, especially at a distance, a kris, I would need to look at the blade.

The answer was that they were told that it was bad luck to show a kris' blade.

I found it rather strange, how can we as a buyer buy a keris without looking at the bilah condition first. No view, equals to no pay.