Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

When I first noticed the 'notches' in the drawings of Austrian swords in the Wagner book, I thought at first the same thing, must be damage.
But then as I looked at the other drawings (about 6 if I recall), they all had the same notch....then in reading the text, I found that Wagner had surmised these 'notches' were for aggravating wounds.

I checked the references for the source weapons Wagner had used, and wrote to the museums noted to acquire actual photos of the subject weapons.
In each case, the photos revealed that the notches were indeed there.

In the case you have posted here, the blade has TWO very shallow notches. These clearly would serve no utility purpose, and why two?
It can be seen they are deliberately placed.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

[Jim McDougall]

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
His keen awareness of the needs for more efficient and standardized swords for the cavalry are well described in his biography "Scientific Soldier" by Thoumaine.

John Morgan wrote brilliant articles on these in "Classic Arms and Militaria" about 20 years ago, and I recall corresponding with him as at that time I was researching both British disc hilts as well as these notched blades.

I recall that then, I had hoped that material on LeMarchant would bring out perhaps some comments or observations on these notched blades. However, even reaching one of his descendants in England brought no notice of this curious feature.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

Very well placed notes, and actually I did contact several 'Masters of Arms' to ask for their opinions on this 'notching'. They honestly had no idea what useful purpose these would serve (I think I still have the letters but its been nearly 20 years).
The note on the potential for weakening the point seems reasonable as well.
This would be the case regardless of what the intended use was.
The idea of holding a cooking pot over a fire seems unlikely as well, as the blade could be damaged by the heat as previously noted.

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
.

I'm aware of LeMarchant's background and his Austrian inspiration for the 1796's working with various British smiths.

I'm trying to find more information on Pottenstein, the resources are nil. The 1765 production start date doesn't make sense with the 1749 blade posted on the first page.

I have a feeling Steiner's uncle Melchior began sword production prior to the listed 1780 date, he was born in 1730 and was "a respected merchant and industrialist." That timeline would jive with 1749 marked Pottenstein blade.

As for the trim of silver vs brass uniforms, I can find nothing that distinguishes this sword as it seems uniquely silver vice the usual brass. Hopefully corrado knows more.

[Victrix]

Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual.

The Habsburg empire was a ”Hausmacht” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und königlich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one.

Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported.

In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Victrix!!!
As I noted, the profound complexity of all these principalities, duchies, etc. is so hard to grasp, at least for me. You have done a great job of condensing some of it for my limited comprehension!!

As you note, these irregular troops, known loosely as 'Pandurs' were known and feared for their ruthless character and indeed atrocities. Von Trenck himself was known for this type of reputation and much if not most of his life he was in trouble, even condemned to death for what amounts to war crimes etc.
He in fact was imprisoned and his units disbanded. He died in prison in 1749, and his mummified remains are in the Capuchin monastery in Brno.

Part of the intended demeanor of these forces was a fearsome 'oriental' look, scalp locks, drooping mustaches like mongols, cossacks etc. and exotic clothing along with fearsome looking weapons.
Many of these swords had dramatically profiled blades, large, dramatic curves, etc.

I still think that the notch was for perhaps that type of implication, to instill fear in accord with thier brutal reputation. In actual practicality, the notch would have been a hindrance. In most writing I have read on the serrated edges on blades, it is noted that this is the case.
The dreaded sawtooth bayonets of WWI for example:
Allied troops thought these were to worsen wounds, and were horrified at the thought of this.......any soldier found with one of this was dispatched on sight.

Psychological effect in warfare is key, and this kind of lore travels fast.
Imagine the tales of these wild forces, who deliberately 'hooked' their blades to eviscerate their victims.

It seems to fall neatly in place with the dreaded 'image' of the terrifying Pandurs. That reputation prevailed..........and into the next century, blades were adorned in hubris with the image of the Pandur. Sort of like exaggerated Bowie knives with 'Remember the Alamo'.

[Victrix]

Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the Pandours and the curious notch on the sword. Franziskus Freiherr von der Trenck must have been a remarkable man. I read what purports to be his auto-biography (some argue it’s a forgery) which is a highly entertaining and in some parts little sad story: Memoirs of the Life of the illustrious Francis Baron Trenck, Sometime Lord of the lBed- Chamber to her Majesty the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia. And Colonel of a Body of Pandours, and Sclavonian Hussars. Containing A compleat Account of his several Campaigns in Muscovy, Silesia, Austria, Bavaria and other Parts of the Empire, Together with Divers entertaining Anecdotes relating to his secret History. Written by himself, and done from the original German into English. London: printed for W. Owen, 1747. There are persistent rumours he had an affair with the Austrian empress which may at some time have turned sour and allowed his enemies to conspire to have him imprisoned. In addition, this report may also be of some interest: http://www.etd.ceu.edu/2015/balic_juraj.pdf.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Victrix!
I just ordered a biography of von Trenck, and curious to see what it entails. This guy sounds quite self promoting and clearly was pretty ruthless, he was pretty much always in trouble but his 'bravery' led to his favor with superior officers.

Regarding the swords, that illustration you posted reflects the 'clipped point' which came into use in it seems a bit less dramatic profile on German swords of 18th c. I often wondered if these were artistic license in many of the period illustrations, but in "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerrhard Seifert (1962) in panels of blade types shows this exact tip as a 'PANDOUR POINT'.
Here we see the association which reflects the 'fearsome' demeanor of the Pandour weapons, which clearly were intended to present psychological threat to people they came in contact with.

This type effect was of course used by pirates in their maritime versions of these depredations, as well as Cossacks, Vikings, Mongols and other groups to present fearsome appearance before even any action.

There is a possibility he was imprisoned as a result of numbers of things, and may have used the 'laison' reason in a sense of hubris. It seems he was imprisoned numbers of times for his rather sociopathic behavior, so the true reason may be in accord with that issue.

[ausjulius]

from my understanding these notches or "claws" are indeed primarilily intended to assist in collecting items from the ground, cloaks, coats, banners.. haversacks ect..

and then seocndary by some that it will produce a worse wound or a greater chance of a deep wound by an accidential swipe with the back of the blade. (for example you thrust overhand but miss and the person passes to the back of your sword sliding against the back edge and spine. some of these weapons have little back edge and would cause little or no harm..

and thirdly to make a bigger wound when withdrawn in a thrust.. (some notched swords look to be styles that can hardly thrust and some notches are not very sharp at all)

i think they serve all three functions and in soem cases one or two of the three.

but i suspect picking items from the ground is the main function,

these also i imagine were ground off swords by armourers and so we see it less often.

pickign items up with you sword is not an unushal activity and you can see footage fo cossacks doing it too.. a lil rough seciton would make it much easier.. poeple could and maybe did carry a stick or a hook as well but.... your a skilled horseman.. dashing and brave not a guy with a stick with a hook in it rummaging for loot...

the mongols, kalmyks ect had hooks and spikes on their spears for this function, as well as pulling tents down and dehorsing poeple for capture..
id imsgine thier loot sacks were filled with shiny things and gooddies with these hooks, id much rather a hook on a spear. but if you have a sword a nice little gooddie hook would be handy,


i think the hooks at the back of the blade as a weapon seems misguided, almost like a meme.. one person said its good so all did it. which is pretty common in military realms.
as remember there is much better things for this.. the yelman on the original mongol and turkic swords is exactly that, a broad blade to alow a deep destructive wound on the thrust an advantagis unintentional cut with the back of the blade in an overhand thrust, later it becomes decorative in more curved blades.
one would have been wiser to order a blade like that. but as they were limited to these issued blades with blades that didnt have these properties they modified them with barbs to cause some harm, if you were stuck with it it would indeed make a bit of tearing on the way out.

as to the blade catching, its not likely.. it will just pull free as if nothing happened. the notches are small and would just tear the target, would woundnt notice any difference.

[Jim McDougall]

Ausjulius, you have put some deep thought into this and I appreciate your perspectives. However, I began studying this curious phenomenon back in the 90s, and reached the museums holding the swords Wagner (1967) depicted in his drawings. I wanted to confirm that these notches did exist in the actual sword blades, which they did.

In my communications with all of the officials contacted, none had any adequate idea on the notches, in fact seemed surprised there was any attention to the feature in the first place.
The only responses did somewhat echo Wagner's surmising these were to worsen wounds etc.

In various conversations with masters of arms in various regions, none of course had any thoughts on the case which was outside the bounds of regular fencing.

The only cases I found, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, these ONLY occurred on numerous example of Austrian swords, and this was by no means a usual or common practice of notching. The only exception I found was the suggestion of a couple of French hussar sabers having this. It should be noted that French hussars often closely followed Hungarian/Austrian in the 18th c.

So if these notches were such a prescribed practice for utility, worsening wounds or such pragmatic purposes.......why not on ANY other swords of ANY other countries?

Hooks, barbs etc. may be common on axes, polearms but NOT the kind of thing you would see on a standard combat side arm like a sword.

The notches are too shallow to effectively hold things picked up from the ground, unless perhaps to snag an item of clothing or material.
Why would a horseman compromise his blade for such nonsense?

The 'yelman' was NEVER intended for thrusting or any such purpose with the blade. The Poles called this feature colloquially 'the feather' , and its purpose was to add weight and momentum to the slashing cut. This has been made clear to me by sources who were Polish military history authorities, and the same purpose seems logically applied to other blades with this feature.

Sword 'catching' features are typically presumed as pragmatic explanation as in actual combat, such a 'catch' would seem almost surprising and coincidental.

In the thrust, which in combat was nearly always fatal, why would a wound need to be worsened, and with the potential of the blade becoming lodged in the victim?

These are just the views I have come up with in the years I've studied this, but I really appreciate input and exchange of ideas. Typically interest in this has been nominal at best, so thank you.

[JT88]

Found some information on Pottenstein for y'all!

Source: https://www.blankwaffenforum.de/inde...&threadID=4120

"Pottenstein in the Triestingtal in Lower Austria

so a Pottensteiner blade , originated around / or. before 1780 Empress MT in

particularwanted topromote Austria as a closer location through its own production facilities for weapons (blanks and firearms) and supported corresponding initiatives. This resulted in several companies, of which Pottenstein was one of them. The saber blade factory in Pottenstein an der Triesting offered when it was relocatedfrom Sollenau in 1764/65 (founded there by Adam von Metzberg in 1754 ) under its new owner


Melchior Steiner from the new location ideal conditions:
relatively convenient proximity to Vienna , the flowing water of the Triesting, which does not freeze in winter and plenty of wood available for production.
In 1766 28 workers were already employed in the Pottensteiner saber blade factory , the annual production amounted to 12,000 blades ( also for pallasche and hussar sabers) , which became known far beyond the Austrian hereditary lands under the term "Pottensteiner" --- and probably still are . 1769
The company expanded and not far from the old factory was given another property assigned by the Merkenstein rulers , where an even newer blade factory was built. In 1786 Steiner's nephew, Melchior Ritter von Steiner, took over the business. In 1800 there were about 50 workers , only then did the slow decline come : in
1811 (great inflationary period in Austria, Napoleon) only 7 workers left , in 1814 (Napoleonic period) almost shutdown.
After Melchior von Steiner's death in 1837 , the plant was finally liquidated in 1841and converted into a cotton mill.
I ask for your support in resolving my questions about the saber - thank you!"

[awdaniec666]

In case you wonder how these gentleman looked like

[kronckew]

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).
...

Originally Posted by From wiki:

Some Bowie knives had a notch on the bottom of the blade near the hilt known as a "Spanish Notch". The Spanish Notch is often cited as a mechanism for catching an opponent's blade; however, some Bowie researchers hold that the Spanish Notch is ill-suited to this function and frequently fails to achieve the desired results. These researchers, instead, hold that the Spanish Notch has the much more mundane function as a tool for stripping sinew and repairing rope and nets, as a guide to assist in sharpening the blade (assuring that the sharpening process starts at a specific point and not further up the edge), or as a point to relieve stress on the blade during use.

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...


My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...

My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

Interesting. I had always believed a Spanish notch was an indention in a self-guard to help prevent the hand from slipping forward onto a blade. To me the second illustration shows a choil used to prevent the thick and hard to sharpen portion of a blade at the end of the ricasso (which this blade lacks).
I personally have always found the choil more of a nuisance than a help especially if the distal end of the notch doesn't slope towards the point. That said I have been told that large choils are used with big knives to allow fingering the blade to help with delicate tasks. I have heard, and maybe read it on this site as well, that specially shaped choils on some knife patterns help with tasks that are regionally common. I always wondered if the cho didn't start that way, or maybe it is just a linga.

The first example seems to somewhere between all three a notch, a choil, and decoration. I am sorry not to have my own illustrations. I delayed this post almost a week and realized I would never publish it if I waited on pictures any longer.

[cel7]

Interesting discussion about the hook. I myself have a Dutch cavalry officers saber model 1813. This one also has this strange hook (see pictures).
A few years ago there was a large auction of 556 Dutch trooper swords and sabers from the Rijksmuseum depot. This included one curious saber with two semicircular recesses on the tip. Years ago, this collection of sabers from the museum's depot was extensively researched and described by the Dutch researcher G Hof. I have attached his report on this strange saber. Since most of you can't read Dutch, I'll summarize it briefly:
He describes the blade and scabbard of a light cavalry saber No.1. Now you should know that the Netherlands bought a batch of m1796 pattern sabers in England. They arrived in Holland at the end of 1813. Deviating is that a British pattern 1821 light cavalry hilt is mounted on this specific example. According to him, this is not surprising because the Netherlands has conducted tests with, among other things, this type of saber. Unfortunately, Mr. Hof can also find no explanation for the strange recess.
Because Mr. Hof does not rule out the possibility that it may be a test saber, the semicircular recesses could also have been made for testing in my opinion.

[cel7]

Does anyone have any idea what purpose these semicircular cutouts would have served?

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Victrix

the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710 with a blade with two notches

[Jim McDougall]

Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre.

I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly.
This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust.

The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely.

Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail!

Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's

[Victrix]

I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy).

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710...

Corrado, what makes this specimen probably Bavarian? I am curious about the references. Thanks.

[corrado26]

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

[toaster5sqn]

Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources.

The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique.

It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such.

The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof.

Robert

[corrado26]

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by corrado26

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Robert, this is in my opinion a brilliant answer to a most obscure question, that is, what in the world were these notches for? which has vexed me for over two decades. As discussed through this thread it seems the most notable presence of this notch at the back of the blade near the tip was on Austrian swords (Wagner, Prague,1967) as shown in as many as 6 or 8 swords (cannot recall offhand).

As these were drawings, I could not fathom why an artist would include such a feature unless it was deliberately placed in the place, and not some random damage as suggested to me by some who I queried. I did confirm with the museums where the actual examples drawn by Wagner were held, and these swords did indeed have the 'notch'.

In fencing, as you certainly know, in fencing, that is combat or duel oriented, the element of distraction by inflicting a wound was of course practiced in various instances. Bear with me as I try to recall...in Italy(originally) the 'stramazone' was a slashing cut swept across the face, especially forehead,causing of course heavy bleeding.

In Scotland, the placement of extended wrist guards on basket hilts was to protect from the wrist cut.

It makes perfect sense that a small notch creating a sharp barb would be remarkably effective for such a typically unexpected backhand move contrary to the expected passes and parries.
In the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) Spaniards used unexpected moves like this with blows to the head or face creating the same distractive result.

This is the first entirely reasonable explanation that seems to make perfect sense. The notions of this inconsequential notch to pick up objects off the ground or to worsen the wound in a thrust both seem patent nonsense but understandably suggested when trying to find a pragmatic solution.

Like many things in actual practice, especially with dueling, which was typically a situation which was formally forbidden, outlawed etc. and with many combat oriented conventions, these would not, understandably, be well documented, if at all.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you!!

[toaster5sqn]

Thank you Jim, but it's still just an idea until someone finds some evidence.

Regarding the wrist guards on Scottish broadswords, fencing manuals from Scotland actually detail various techniques for cutting to the wrist or forearm. This was because disabling the weapon hand was a guaranteed duel win without the risk of being charged with murder for killing your opponent.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

You're right Robert ,
of course the chances of finding documented evidence, as often the case in these kinds of obscure details is pretty slim. The guys writing here have mentioned this type of slashing cut in previous posts, and depending on what sources from which they may have acquired their notations, if not connected might suggest corroboration. Still, at best, we only have reasonable plausibility, but intriguing just the same.

[rysays]

What's possibly relevant is this line from Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillard's "Essai sur le duel" (1836), where notched or chipped swords are expressly forbidden in the duel with epee:

"Les lames des épées ne doivent , dans aucun cas , être tranchantes ni ébréchées."

This apparently refers to the practice of intentional sharpening or chipping the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes that were decided by blood. However, there's no mention of notches in the code for the duel with sabers- only that the combatants must wield swords of the same mount, style, & length. Separate provisions are made for saber duels with or without points, but specific blade prohibitions like with the epee are absent. It's possible that the practice of notching sabers had fallen out of fashion in France by the time of this text & was unknown to the author, or it could be that it was acceptable practice & didn't bear mentioning. There is a requirement for duelists to wear either a glove or a handkerchief to protect the hand, so the advantage of such a notch may have lost its usefulness by this time. Another possibility could lie in Germanic dueling traditions, as the majority of these blades seem to be from regions where the mensur would become popular.