Karud dagger with unusual chased scabbard

mahratt · 4th December 2022, 01:44 PM

Hello, francolin.

Undoubtedly, this Karud dagger itself is of Afghan-Indian origin. Of main interest are the details of the scabbard.
No, Tajikistan and the Tajiks of Badakhshan certainly have nothing to do with the decoration of the details of the scabbard of your new dagger.
When I talked about the eastern Afghanistan area close to China, I meant a small area of the territory, which I circled in red on the map.
Unfortunately, I do not have photos with the native people of Nepal who have Karud daggers. But the use of talwars and kutars by the Nepalese is absolutely known. Therefore, the possibility that Karuds could also be used in this region cannot be ruled out.

Well, the second image that I am posting is a Karud in an absolutely Tibetan-Nepalese sheath from the collection of the museum Gugong in Pekin.

francantolin · 4th December 2022, 06:04 PM

Exact ! Wakhan nomad people living in the ''wakhan corridor'' area.

Nice and interesting picture of this karud with his coral turquoise silver scabbard in '' tibetan himalayan style''.

I wonder what is written in chinese on the description and if they call this dagger ''karud'' ?.....

mahratt · 5th December 2022, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Exact ! Wakhan nomad people living in the ''wakhan corridor'' area.

Nice and interesting picture of this karud with his coral turquoise silver scabbard in '' tibetan himalayan style''.

I wonder what is written in chinese on the description and if they call this dagger ''karud'' ?.....

Yes, my friend, your eyesight does not fail you

The karuda scabbard from the Gugong Museum is decorated exactly in "tibetan himalayan style". I deliberately placed the image large enough so that can clearly see the features of the decor, including the classic Tibetan use of red corals.
Unfortunately, I do not know what is written in the museum next to the Karud dagger. I think that in China this weapon had its own local name.

I think you understood my idea that although the images of the Nepalese with Karud daggers are not known, but since the native people of the region undoubtedly actively used talwars and kutars, as well as we know are also Karud daggers with scabbard decor typical for Tibet (at least an item from the Gugun Museum and Your dagger), it is likely that there was occasional use of karud daggers by the people of Nepal. After all, "travel" arms is not uncommon. I remember that in some old topic, Ariel gave an example of a Georgian saber, the blade of which was made from the Indian Khanda sword. Georgia is much further from India than Nepal is from India or Afghanistan.

Battara · 5th December 2022, 06:47 AM

In both cases the silver repousse work is fantastic!

ariel · 5th December 2022, 07:59 AM

Jose,
On that we agree.

Ren Ren · 5th December 2022, 08:10 PM

It is well known that Nepalese khukris were used in Afghanistan. I see no reason why reverse borrowing could not take place in the field of weapons.

Ren Ren · 5th December 2022, 08:33 PM

Let's not forget that in 1791-92 Sino-Tibetan troops captured half of Nepal and stood at the walls of Kathmandu. Emperor Qianlong forced the rulers of Nepal to recognize vassalage and pay tribute. Which was paid until 1911.

ariel · 6th December 2022, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It is well known that Nepalese khukris were used in Afghanistan. I see no reason why reverse borrowing could not take place in the field of weapons.

Very intriguing idea, I never considered it. My main hesitation is that weapons travel not necessarily in a " two way" fashion. Japanese adopted European side weapons, but AFAIK no European military adopted wakizashis or tantos. Indians adopted Persian shamshirs, khanjars and pesh kabzes, but Persia never adopted Indian tulwars, khandas, chillanums or bichwas. Nepalese and Tibetans were both using koras, but Tibetans did not have kukris and Nepalese did not have straight Tibetan swords.

Reasoning aside, can you help me with any factual evidence that Pesh Kabzes ( "Karuds") were used in Nepal, perhaps outside of their potential presence in museum exhibitions and private Nepalese collections?

How about regulation military weapons?

ariel · 4th December 2022, 10:51 PM

Practice of "pretty-fying" weapons is well-known. For example, khans and emirs of Central Asia sent presents to the Russian Tsars: just a garden varieties of good, often wootz, daggers from India, Persia or Afghanistan were embellished with enormous amouns of gold, new gold scabbards with gems etc. They thought that kitsch was a good thing for a Royal Present:-)

And yes, Nepalese warriors used tulwars and katars. This is not surprising taking into account that Rajputs immigrated to Nepal as early as 13 century and from there on, evading Muslim persecutions. They brought with them their weapons. But I completely agree with Mahratt that there is no good evidence of "karuds" use in Nepal. I am also very doubtful that the Chinese example can serve as a positive evidence of anything. IMHO, it is a very pretty-fied garden variety Central Asian karud.

I still think that there is a stark contrast between the simplicity and crudeness of the dagger itself and the elaborate scabbard. Scabbards in general had a much shorter life span than the blades and most of the old bladed weapons are on their second ( third, fourth...) scabbard. In short, my guess you got yourself a pretty old Central Asian "karud" with an old replacement scabbard.

But after all, as a rule photos allow only very superficial assessment. Only having the actual example allows the new owner to reach valid conclusions.

Overall, you got yourself a very nice new toy. Enjoy it!

4th December 2022, 01:44 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Hello, francolin. Undoubtedly, this Karud dagger itself is of Afghan-Indian origin. Of main interest are the details of the scabbard. No, Tajikistan and the Tajiks of Badakhshan certainly have nothing to do with the decoration of the details of the scabbard of your new dagger. When I talked about the eastern Afghanistan area close to China, I meant a small area of the territory, which I circled in red on the map. Unfortunately, I do not have photos with the native people of Nepal who have Karud daggers. But the use of talwars and kutars by the Nepalese is absolutely known. Therefore, the possibility that Karuds could also be used in this region cannot be ruled out. Well, the second image that I am posting is a Karud in an absolutely Tibetan-Nepalese sheath from the collection of the museum Gugong in Pekin. Attached Images

4th December 2022, 06:04 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Exact ! Wakhan nomad people living in the ''wakhan corridor'' area. Nice and interesting picture of this karud with his coral turquoise silver scabbard in '' tibetan himalayan style''. I wonder what is written in chinese on the description and if they call this dagger ''karud'' ?.....

5th December 2022, 06:47 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	In both cases the silver repousse work is fantastic!

5th December 2022, 07:59 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jose, On that we agree.

5th December 2022, 08:10 PM	#6
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 370	It is well known that Nepalese khukris were used in Afghanistan. I see no reason why reverse borrowing could not take place in the field of weapons.

5th December 2022, 08:33 PM	#7
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 370	Let's not forget that in 1791-92 Sino-Tibetan troops captured half of Nepal and stood at the walls of Kathmandu. Emperor Qianlong forced the rulers of Nepal to recognize vassalage and pay tribute. Which was paid until 1911.

4th December 2022, 10:51 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Practice of "pretty-fying" weapons is well-known. For example, khans and emirs of Central Asia sent presents to the Russian Tsars: just a garden varieties of good, often wootz, daggers from India, Persia or Afghanistan were embellished with enormous amouns of gold, new gold scabbards with gems etc. They thought that kitsch was a good thing for a Royal Present:-) And yes, Nepalese warriors used tulwars and katars. This is not surprising taking into account that Rajputs immigrated to Nepal as early as 13 century and from there on, evading Muslim persecutions. They brought with them their weapons. But I completely agree with Mahratt that there is no good evidence of "karuds" use in Nepal. I am also very doubtful that the Chinese example can serve as a positive evidence of anything. IMHO, it is a very pretty-fied garden variety Central Asian karud. I still think that there is a stark contrast between the simplicity and crudeness of the dagger itself and the elaborate scabbard. Scabbards in general had a much shorter life span than the blades and most of the old bladed weapons are on their second ( third, fourth...) scabbard. In short, my guess you got yourself a pretty old Central Asian "karud" with an old replacement scabbard. But after all, as a rule photos allow only very superficial assessment. Only having the actual example allows the new owner to reach valid conclusions. Overall, you got yourself a very nice new toy. Enjoy it!