THE BORDER REIVERS.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2022, 05:44 PM

More great perspective Peter, and it is great to have more dimension revealed on how these distinct Reiver groups were indeed factored into armies in these cases.
As agreed the use of their weapon forms and many terms which have entered vernacular as expressions have shown the profound influence the Reivers have had culturally.

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2022, 05:56 PM

Thanks Jim and nice to see the great artwork you have detailed. Peter

Please download the following;

https://archive.org/details/lordward...p?view=theater

urbanspaceman · 26th November 2022, 06:28 PM

So long as the two countries were divided, the borders were policed by neither Scotland nor England; consequently, Reivers could reive in both countries and hide in the borders.
The Borders also provided refuge for Scots families who had been outlawed... as was often the case. These families tended to be politically troublesome as well as criminal, so inevitably they gave allegiance to no-one and stole from everyone.
Brian Moffatt has researched and recorded everything there is to know about the Reivers over on the West side of Northumberland. His website is a monumental - ongoing - work that gives jaw-dropping insight into the Reivers and the debatable lands:
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
Stealing cattle in Scotland and driving it into England... and vice-versa, was simply too good an opportunity to ignore. Stealing weapons from both countries was also a good idea and consequently led to the enormous variety of swords used.
Here on Tyneside we have an expression: "The Wilds of Wannie" meaning beyond civilisation. This comes from the Wansbeck River and hills running West to East across Northumberland about 20 miles north of Newcastle. Once you crossed over, you were in territory that was not policed and obviously dangerous; even after unification it was still not safe.

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2022, 07:55 PM

Thanks Keith,
Brian Moffat has more than 6 decades of study on this subject and has amassed a museum load of detail and research second to none. He is well down the road of putting a complete museum of artefacts in Hawick and hopefully we should be visiting there on its completion.

Thanks for your recent e mail last week telling me about Brian Moffat and his incredible saga.

Meanwhile on combing through information at Durham University here is a monumentally important thesis that vitally places The Northern Horse and its theory in warfare into perspective ...It shows how in the 16th C. these English Cavalry were used on the continent and covers how they were deployed as well as fine detail on their armaments.

Thus Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

Regards Peter Hudson.

M ELEY · 27th November 2022, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).
Yesterday 11:31 AM

Jim, thank you do much for this valuable material! As the Reivers were put down by the early 1600's, these sword types that the article indicates (pre-Claymore) are indeed the types they would have carried. I would also suggest the possible use of the claidheamh da laimh (the Braveheart sword type) during this time period-

Peter Hudson · 27th November 2022, 07:43 PM

Thank you M. Eley for your contribution and if I may point to page 35 of my reference it views the various weaponry usually fielded by Border Reivers.

Please see http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

Clearly there was no possibility for open cavalry tactics as the country in the borders is almost mountainous and thus virtually impossible unless moving singlefile on narrow tracks. However it is easy to see how horse born raiders could infiltrate great distances and apply flank security as well as recconaisance and reporting and not hindered by darkness their sudden appearance could be so effective as Light Cav...It was on the continent where any formal tactical training may have occured where using their inbred ability as hunters and herders and their courage would have been key to their success. Their lances from which the nickname Prickers ...was born.. were excellent as weapons as well as herding stolen animals... Firearms were essentially too costly but some richer Border Reivers possibly carried a pistol or two. The main missile weapon was either a crossbow (Latch) or a longbow. A particular type of curved sabre called a Winjer was carried and armour included a Jack ...a style of waist coat into which metal plates were sewn as a protection against enemy blades. The Lobsterpot head armour was often worn if it could be afforded...otherwise the addition of an axe or dagger may have completed their arms.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.effect.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2022, 08:31 PM

With the 'assembled' nature of these organized groups of 'reivers', while there was a typical range of weaponry and dress, there were no regulations or standards, so 'anything was possible'. Typically on horseback, those mounted would of course not used the huge 'two hand' swords, and these men would have used whatever swords were available. As has been noted however, the most typical weapon was the couched lance. In the 16th century, which seem the period most attended historically, there were many forms of European fighting swords, most of them of types known to be used by the 'landsknechts', German mercenary forces.

The two hander was of course indeed used through the 16th century in Scotland in many cases, but mostly incidentally, as it was not a widely apportioned weapon. As in Europe, these huge swords had been decreasing in general use, and in Scotland, if I understand correctly, many of these had their blades cut down and were used in 'basket hilts'. Perhaps this may have been why the term 'claymore' was used through the 19th c. for the basket hilts, or maybe just a generalized term by then.

In a way I think of the Reivers in the manner of Jesse James during the Civil War, and with Quantrills Raiders. After the war, he and many of these soldiers simply continued their ways though they were now 'outlaws' . When they could no longer operate without impunity, they simply diffused into their own respective clans and no longer operated in the organized groups of before.

26th November 2022, 06:28 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 532	History So long as the two countries were divided, the borders were policed by neither Scotland nor England; consequently, Reivers could reive in both countries and hide in the borders. The Borders also provided refuge for Scots families who had been outlawed... as was often the case. These families tended to be politically troublesome as well as criminal, so inevitably they gave allegiance to no-one and stole from everyone. Brian Moffatt has researched and recorded everything there is to know about the Reivers over on the West side of Northumberland. His website is a monumental - ongoing - work that gives jaw-dropping insight into the Reivers and the debatable lands: https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic Stealing cattle in Scotland and driving it into England... and vice-versa, was simply too good an opportunity to ignore. Stealing weapons from both countries was also a good idea and consequently led to the enormous variety of swords used. Here on Tyneside we have an expression: "The Wilds of Wannie" meaning beyond civilisation. This comes from the Wansbeck River and hills running West to East across Northumberland about 20 miles north of Newcastle. Once you crossed over, you were in territory that was not policed and obviously dangerous; even after unification it was still not safe.

27th November 2022, 07:43 PM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Thank you M. Eley for your contribution and if I may point to page 35 of my reference it views the various weaponry usually fielded by Border Reivers. Please see http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/ Clearly there was no possibility for open cavalry tactics as the country in the borders is almost mountainous and thus virtually impossible unless moving singlefile on narrow tracks. However it is easy to see how horse born raiders could infiltrate great distances and apply flank security as well as recconaisance and reporting and not hindered by darkness their sudden appearance could be so effective as Light Cav...It was on the continent where any formal tactical training may have occured where using their inbred ability as hunters and herders and their courage would have been key to their success. Their lances from which the nickname Prickers ...was born.. were excellent as weapons as well as herding stolen animals... Firearms were essentially too costly but some richer Border Reivers possibly carried a pistol or two. The main missile weapon was either a crossbow (Latch) or a longbow. A particular type of curved sabre called a Winjer was carried and armour included a Jack ...a style of waist coat into which metal plates were sewn as a protection against enemy blades. The Lobsterpot head armour was often worn if it could be afforded...otherwise the addition of an axe or dagger may have completed their arms. Regards, Peter Hudson.effect. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 27th November 2022 at 08:20 PM.

27th November 2022, 08:31 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	With the 'assembled' nature of these organized groups of 'reivers', while there was a typical range of weaponry and dress, there were no regulations or standards, so 'anything was possible'. Typically on horseback, those mounted would of course not used the huge 'two hand' swords, and these men would have used whatever swords were available. As has been noted however, the most typical weapon was the couched lance. In the 16th century, which seem the period most attended historically, there were many forms of European fighting swords, most of them of types known to be used by the 'landsknechts', German mercenary forces. The two hander was of course indeed used through the 16th century in Scotland in many cases, but mostly incidentally, as it was not a widely apportioned weapon. As in Europe, these huge swords had been decreasing in general use, and in Scotland, if I understand correctly, many of these had their blades cut down and were used in 'basket hilts'. Perhaps this may have been why the term 'claymore' was used through the 19th c. for the basket hilts, or maybe just a generalized term by then. In a way I think of the Reivers in the manner of Jesse James during the Civil War, and with Quantrills Raiders. After the war, he and many of these soldiers simply continued their ways though they were now 'outlaws' . When they could no longer operate without impunity, they simply diffused into their own respective clans and no longer operated in the organized groups of before. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th November 2022 at 08:47 PM.

26th November 2022, 05:56 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Thanks Jim and nice to see the great artwork you have detailed. Peter Please download the following; https://archive.org/details/lordward...p?view=theater

26th November 2022, 07:55 PM	#4
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	Thanks Keith, Brian Moffat has more than 6 decades of study on this subject and has amassed a museum load of detail and research second to none. He is well down the road of putting a complete museum of artefacts in Hawick and hopefully we should be visiting there on its completion. Thanks for your recent e mail last week telling me about Brian Moffat and his incredible saga. Meanwhile on combing through information at Durham University here is a monumentally important thesis that vitally places The Northern Horse and its theory in warfare into perspective ...It shows how in the 16th C. these English Cavalry were used on the continent and covers how they were deployed as well as fine detail on their armaments. Thus Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/ Regards Peter Hudson.