THE BORDER REIVERS.

M ELEY · 25th November 2022, 12:27 AM

Hello Peter and thank you for bringing up this topic! I have only recently started to study these clans of the Southwest regions of Scotland. I recently found out through Ancestry.com that I'm 27% Scot and realized it was on my paternal grandmother's side. She was a Young. The Young clan were one of the many family groups of this region that were made up of the Border Reivers. As you probably already read, they were ferocious fighters who attacked other clans and also the English over their border (thus the name!

). I would imagine they made great warriors, but by their very nature, they were not 'team players'. I always imagine one of their clan being asked to whom do they hold allegiance to and they replying;

"To the three, laddie...me, myself, and I! Now go %$#* off!"

So they held no allegiances and were prickly around others. As I understand it, they were finally crushed by the king's forces near the end of the 16th century. It would indeed have been interesting, had they survived and remained strong, to see where they might have sided during the Jacobite troubles.

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2022, 07:10 AM

This is indeed a fascinating and esoteric topic, and as Mark has noted, the fact that their allegiance was primarily to their family or clan likely made them less than reliable for incorporating into regimented ranks. Their well earned reputation as fierce fighters and rugged came with their nature of outlaw character, with the term reiver from Old English, 'reive'=to rob.

Regardless of whether they were ever officially brought into the English order of battle, they were likely involved in degree, and as described, depending on the situation. What I think is important is the influences of the arms and armor used, which seem to consist of interesting assortment of forms from European sources with many apparently associated in the evolution of the famed basket hilt swords of Scotland. These of course were actually evolved in England as well and through these border regions and people.

David R · 25th November 2022, 09:50 AM

Both Scots and English kings used them in their local wars, but found them inclined to have their own alliances and motivation in combat. The unification removed their reason for existence and James really hated them, especially the Graham family who he outlawed and banished from the UK. The Steel Bonnets by George MacDonald Frazer is a good reference if you can get hold of it.

urbanspaceman · 25th November 2022, 04:40 PM

I'm a Graham; at least I was until my father married my mother.
Her family finally settled down to farming in Ford/Etal but her father ran off with the circus and became a lion tamer.
We were not alone in our infamy: the bloody Armstrongs and Robsons were equally unpleasant... they are still a thorn in my side - having employed both over the years.
It has now become fashionable, up here on the borders, to take pride in your Reiver ancestry.
The value of such prestige is as debatable as the borderlands; although our Port wines can inspire such confidence.
Here's our crest:

Interested Party · 25th November 2022, 04:54 PM

What, who is the hawk, eagle eating?

Never mind. I found an answer https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/Graham.htm . I did not find out what the stork represented.

urbanspaceman · 25th November 2022, 05:02 PM

It is a falcon killing a stork... don't ask me about the provenance or intention.
If anyone knows - please enlighten us.

M ELEY · 26th November 2022, 03:55 AM

To be fair, many of the clans did not get along. There was frequent fighting between families and even in-fighting between members. The Highland clans didn't typically like the Lowlanders, etc. We even see this division when it came to the Rebellion periods. Not all Jacobites were Highlanders and vice versa. I've heard of the two separate groups of Clan Campbell, for instance, one supported the Bonny Prince, while the other King George I. So the Reivers weren't exactly a standout in this area. I think what made them 'infamous' was their ferocity, their refusal to 'take a side' and the fact that they did most certainly shake up the establishment on the English border. During their raids, no one was spared some grief, I imagine!

fernando · 28th November 2022, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

The value of such prestige is as debatable as the borderlands; although our Port wines can inspire such confidence...

You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ?

.

urbanspaceman · 29th November 2022, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ?

.

Hello Fernando; late in responding: I've been AWOL this weekend.
Graham's Port is available in any of our supermarkets and is an acceptable drop; but I visited a shop in Lisbon on several occasions (corner shop on the edge of the city-center close to the river; sadly, I forget its name) that brings the truth of my previous satisfactory experiences into disrepute. This shop, and its owner made me realise just what a truly wonderful product Port can be. I love Lisbon... especially at Christmas in a tuc-tuc after a couple of glasses.

fernando · 30th November 2022, 02:42 PM

Just browse the Net on "Ne Oblie" selective Graham's Port cast, to better see what i meant

.

25th November 2022, 12:27 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	Hello Peter and thank you for bringing up this topic! I have only recently started to study these clans of the Southwest regions of Scotland. I recently found out through Ancestry.com that I'm 27% Scot and realized it was on my paternal grandmother's side. She was a Young. The Young clan were one of the many family groups of this region that were made up of the Border Reivers. As you probably already read, they were ferocious fighters who attacked other clans and also the English over their border (thus the name!). I would imagine they made great warriors, but by their very nature, they were not 'team players'. I always imagine one of their clan being asked to whom do they hold allegiance to and they replying; "To the three, laddie...me, myself, and I! Now go %$#* off!" So they held no allegiances and were prickly around others. As I understand it, they were finally crushed by the king's forces near the end of the 16th century. It would indeed have been interesting, had they survived and remained strong, to see where they might have sided during the Jacobite troubles.

25th November 2022, 04:40 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	The Grahams I'm a Graham; at least I was until my father married my mother. Her family finally settled down to farming in Ford/Etal but her father ran off with the circus and became a lion tamer. We were not alone in our infamy: the bloody Armstrongs and Robsons were equally unpleasant... they are still a thorn in my side - having employed both over the years. It has now become fashionable, up here on the borders, to take pride in your Reiver ancestry. The value of such prestige is as debatable as the borderlands; although our Port wines can inspire such confidence. Here's our crest: Attached Images

25th November 2022, 05:02 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	ornithology It is a falcon killing a stork... don't ask me about the provenance or intention. If anyone knows - please enlighten us.

25th November 2022, 07:10 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	This is indeed a fascinating and esoteric topic, and as Mark has noted, the fact that their allegiance was primarily to their family or clan likely made them less than reliable for incorporating into regimented ranks. Their well earned reputation as fierce fighters and rugged came with their nature of outlaw character, with the term reiver from Old English, 'reive'=to rob. Regardless of whether they were ever officially brought into the English order of battle, they were likely involved in degree, and as described, depending on the situation. What I think is important is the influences of the arms and armor used, which seem to consist of interesting assortment of forms from European sources with many apparently associated in the evolution of the famed basket hilt swords of Scotland. These of course were actually evolved in England as well and through these border regions and people.

25th November 2022, 09:50 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,069	Both Scots and English kings used them in their local wars, but found them inclined to have their own alliances and motivation in combat. The unification removed their reason for existence and James really hated them, especially the Graham family who he outlawed and banished from the UK. The Steel Bonnets by George MacDonald Frazer is a good reference if you can get hold of it.

25th November 2022, 04:54 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 436	What, who is the hawk, eagle eating? Never mind. I found an answer https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/Graham.htm . I did not find out what the stork represented.

26th November 2022, 03:55 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	To be fair, many of the clans did not get along. There was frequent fighting between families and even in-fighting between members. The Highland clans didn't typically like the Lowlanders, etc. We even see this division when it came to the Rebellion periods. Not all Jacobites were Highlanders and vice versa. I've heard of the two separate groups of Clan Campbell, for instance, one supported the Bonny Prince, while the other King George I. So the Reivers weren't exactly a standout in this area. I think what made them 'infamous' was their ferocity, their refusal to 'take a side' and the fact that they did most certainly shake up the establishment on the English border. During their raids, no one was spared some grief, I imagine!

30th November 2022, 02:42 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just browse the Net on "Ne Oblie" selective Graham's Port cast, to better see what i meant .