The Knaud

JustYS · 3rd November 2022, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Perhaps we might consider the dimensions & proportions?

Does this keris have a separate gonjo or is gonjo iras?

Have we looked closely at the pesi?

Have we considered the actual blade sculpting that is covered by the bronze overlay?

Lots of things going on here gentleman. Can we relate all these things to the Keris Buda form?

Harmony?

Well, from that perspective it is certainly no symphony.

Thank you for posing these questions Alan.

To my untrained eyes, Knaud Keris has round pesi, which would not be conform to Keris Buda that typically square pesi?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2022, 12:48 PM

Thank you for your comments JYS.

In fact, I've been looking at pictures of that Knaud for years, I mean literally years. I've probably looked at The Knaud pictures more than I've looked at any other keris or pictures of keris.

In spite of all that looking I could not make up my mind in respect of two little questions, just little questions, maybe most people would not think that these little questions were even questions, just idle, wandering curiosity. But to me these questions were the single biggest unanswered questions about The Knaud, and they were unanswerable, because The Knaud was lost, but then it just sort of magically reappeared again, it came into the hands of a highly respected writer on the keris, David Van Duuren, and a door opened.

Mr. Van Duuren took the whole legend apart, top to bottom, and in the process answered many questions, something that I am very grateful for. But he did not answer the two questions that had worked their way to the top of my question list.

So, after reading his book, I wrote to him and asked if the gonjo was round or square, most especially if it was round or square at the point where it exited the gonjo, I also asked if there was any evidence if it had ever had a metuk fitted, and if it had an integral (iras) gonjo or if the gonjo was separate to the blade.

Mr. Van Duuren responded promptly and without equivocation:-

1) the pesi is round
2) there is no evidence of a metuk
3) the gonjo is iras, ie, it was forged as integral with the blade

I currently have custody of four typical keris buda, well, three are typical, the fourth is much larger than typical, but also of typical buda form, one of the three has lost its original gonjo and its gonjo has been replaced. All four have or had gonjos that were forged separately to the body of the blade.

Apart from these four KB's I also have two transitional keris, that is, keris that bear some features of a KB and some features of the Modern Keris. Both these transitional keris have gonjos that were forged separately to the body of the blade.

In the past I have had other KB's that I passed on to other people. I have also handled KB's that belonged to other people, or that were for sale and I did not buy.

I have only ever seen one genuine old KB that had a gonjo iras and that keris was a cast bronze keris.

I have never seen a genuine old KB that had been made with a round pesi.

In Jawa, the very first thing that any keris literate person looks at in order to form an opinion on the age of a very old keris is the pesi at the point where it emerges from the gonjo. If it has a round pesi it is eliminated from consideration as being of extreme age.

So, is it possible for me to accept that a keris with a round pesi and an integral gonjo actually was produced prior to the collapse of Majapahit?

But the pesi and the gonjo are only two questionable characteristics, there are also other things that raise questions.

Bob A · 3rd November 2022, 05:17 PM

I don't have the book, nor have I read it. The only information I have is from the posts here, and the pictures that I can see on my computer screen.

The question I have relates to the apparent wear on the carved figures: how might it have occurred, on an object that would presumably have haf great significance? It seems odd that this should be the case. Was it an intentional part of the design, to emulate the worn figures on carved stone statuary? On first glance, that was my impression.

My experience with sculpture from the area of its origin is nearly nil, as is most of my understanding of the keris, and indeed of the culture from whence it sprang, so I hope my effrontery in commenting will be viewed in that context, and forgiven for its lack of sophistication.

Gustav · 3rd November 2022, 08:32 PM

While reeding van Duuren's booklet I was stunned how thin in fact the story of Charles Knaud's brothers grandson (who "was familiar with direct descendants existence, but not personally acquainted with them") is - not better and not worse then contemporary keris-selling-stories in Indonesia.

There surely are many questions about this object, because almost every physical part of it is a question. I would like to adress a small, seemingly unimportant feature.

On the Sogokan side of the bronze plaque there is depicted a carriage, drawn by two horses (?) and a single rider on a horse. My problem with this depiction is a following one: until now I don't know of any similar representation of carriages wheels in such spatial way in East-Javanese period art.

The same I can say about the representation of the dynamic motion of the horse with rider - I don't know the proper name of this motion, let's call it a leaping horse. It is something we can find in Middle-East/Indian/European art, perhaps in later Javanese manuscript illuminations or Wayang, but until now I haven't seen anything comparable from East Javanese period.

Also exactly the same spatial rendering of wheels of carriage (and the animals which are drawing it) can be find on Wayang Kulit figures, which date back to 19th century.

I also would like to address a section in van Duuren's conclusion I have a problem with. It defends authenticity of the object and he writes:

"Moreover, do so at a time when Javanese antiquities were only of value to a small number of ethnological museums and an extremely small circle of experts. After all, a commercial market for collectors, antique dealers and auctions where many Asian antiquities are handled - and where an Indo-Javanese keris presented as genuine would not attract a high price if nobody had realized it was a fake - did not exist."

In the collection of Raffles there are 132 metal figurines. Most of them are from Middle-/East-Javanese period, but over 20 are datable of end of 1700ties/beginning of 1800ties. They are very crude forgeries of art from earlier periods, collected in 1811-1816. That means that already at that time Javanese must have seen here a possibility of profit and started to make these again after a gap of about 300 years. How much more advanced the "art" could have been in 1880ties! Let's remember - the Knaud's keris entered the reality as a submission to "Exhibition of Products of Some Brances of Industry and Art", was given the second prize, and apparently was part of a collection, which "has never been described anywhere", not the best provenance we can think of.

I think, there is a quite high percent of possibility the Knaud's Keris is a hoax, and this percent did not become smaller with me after reading the booklet. On the other side, I must accept, that I actually know almost nothing. I would like to make an illustration of that feeling with another keris, the state heirloom of Kutai Kartanagara. The tradition says, it comes from time of Majapahit, it is depicted as drawing in Schmeltz's article from 1890. Regrettably this is the only photograph of it I could find - enjoy!

Gustav · 3rd November 2022, 08:39 PM

The possible possible model for Knaud's keris?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2022, 09:55 PM

Yes Gustav, precisely so.

This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum.

That depression in the blade edge was caused by damage it is not original to the statue. The info board identifies this statue as either:- Garuda, or Minak Jinggo, or Maha Kala, or Bairawa. In other words they're not too sure exactly who it is supposed to be.

So, exactly when was that statue discovered and made available for public viewing?

This would have been before the Trowulan Museum existed because the museum was built in 1924, and Charles Knaud had the keris in his possession long before this.

When we know more about the statue, then we have the possibility of knowing more about when the Knaud keris was actually produced.

When I photographed the statue I made no connection between it & The Knaud, it was only later when I was looking at my photos of it that it dawned on me that I was looking at the inspiration for the Knaud Keris.

However, even without that gift of the statue with its damaged keris, there are far too many abberations present in The Knaud for it to be accepted as a product of the Majapahit era.

ADDITION

Gustav, I read your post #17 before your Post #16, but now I have looked at your #16.

You have reached the same conclusions about The Knaud that I reached about 40 years ago, but was unable to substantiate.

I reached my conclusions after I saw recently produced "Majapahit" artefacts that were being purchased in Solo by an American who lived in Solo and made his living by sending these brand new relics of past times to dealers and auction houses in USA & Europe. Then I learnt how present day forgers in Jawa did not produce forgeries for the open market, but already had the victim in mind and were in the process of priming him for the Big Hit while the forged object was being prepared. A particularly well known keris and art collector who was internationally famous as an authority on Javanese art was a favourite target of the Shonky Brotherhood.

Recognised reference books that deal with Javanese art contain photos of blatant fakes, the same is true of museum exhibits, and items in private collections. We are not talking about little money here, we are talking about very, very big money. This is still going on, right now, as I am writing this.

The reason I began to deal keris in the first place was because it was very, very obvious that in Indonesia the knowledge was held by the dealers --- as much is said in Centhini, that was 200 years ago. To truly understand any antiques or antiquities in Jawa & Bali one needs to become a dealer, nobody has the slightest possibility of learning much at all by standing outside and looking in through a window.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2022, 10:43 PM

Thank you for your comments Bob.

Gustav cut through what I had hoped was going to be a few pages of group investigation, keeping interested parties busy thinking through propositions and coming to conclusions for a couple of weeks, but what he has posted is absolutely correct.

It still might be interesting to look at all the other irregularities with The Knaud, but I believe we can now see that we have all been just a little bit misled for the last 100 years or so.

Here is a link to a very good colour photo of both sides of The Knaud.

https://www.artoftheancestors.com/bl...vid-van-duuren

The overlay is bronze that is permanently fixed, the dark patches on the bronze are copper repairs. We do not know at this point how that overlay was fixed to the iron body, it might have been made and then soldered in place, or it might have been carved into the overlay of bronze at the time when this object was produced.

Anything that we believe we can deduce from looking at photos of this Knaud keris must be measured by the understanding that we are almost certainly looking at a post Majapahit production, probably post Mojo by a few hundred years or so.

But one thing that does come out of this close look at The Knaud is that David Van Duuren's book is now a publication that I believe every truly serious student of the keris needs in his book case, together with notes on tipped in half pages.

In my opinion, Mr. Van Duuren's book has now become just as essential as all the other classic keris publications.

kai · 4th November 2022, 01:42 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum.

Just for your peace of mind: You did post pics & close-ups of this statue here a while back.

We did discuss the broken edge of the blade back then. I did not made the connection that this might very well be the basis for the Knaud keris - it's a pretty convincing working hypothesis. Iconic and unique pieces/representations can be traps for forgers, especially when working from published pictures. If they only had stayed more true to the actual decor on the blade, the piece would have raised much fewer eyebrows!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 4th November 2022, 01:51 AM

Hello Gustav,

Thanks for your insightful postings!

Quote:

I would like to make an illustration of that feeling with another keris, the state heirloom of Kutai Kartanagara. The tradition says, it comes from time of Majapahit, it is depicted as drawing in Schmeltz's article from 1890.

It's pretty clear that keris like these would be referred to as Mojo.

As you already inferred, it's obvious that quite a few of these keris buda (and related pieces) are of much later manufacture though.

Thanks for posting the pic - I had not seen any pic of this piece and it's a valuable addition to the artwork in Schmeltz!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 4th November 2022, 02:41 AM

Thanks for that Kai.

I did a quick search but I could not find where I'd posted it.

As I wrote in my previous post I did not really make a connection when I saw the statue, I was too busy dodging the photo police, it was only much later that I made the connection.

Yes, true that if the conman had made something that stayed true to type The Knaud would probably have been accepted as real, but if you want to sell something for big duit to an art collector, it helps if what you are presenting is a dated one off, and way, way back the internet was not around. I most sincerely doubt that even the smartest shonk could pull off something like The Knaud today.

But they do still pull off some pretty incredible coups. I recently saw evidence of what I would guess was a multi-million dollar bit of shonkery.

How these dogs sleep at night is beyond my understanding.

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2023, 11:30 AM

I am bringing this thread out of hiding so that I do not need to respond to several private emails, the questions in those emails were all similar, and all from people who are planning a visit to Jawa & Bali.

A reading of this thread will, I believe, be of considerable assistance to those people. It might even help to save them some folding money too.

3rd November 2022, 08:32 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,238	While reeding van Duuren's booklet I was stunned how thin in fact the story of Charles Knaud's brothers grandson (who "was familiar with direct descendants existence, but not personally acquainted with them") is - not better and not worse then contemporary keris-selling-stories in Indonesia. There surely are many questions about this object, because almost every physical part of it is a question. I would like to adress a small, seemingly unimportant feature. On the Sogokan side of the bronze plaque there is depicted a carriage, drawn by two horses (?) and a single rider on a horse. My problem with this depiction is a following one: until now I don't know of any similar representation of carriages wheels in such spatial way in East-Javanese period art. The same I can say about the representation of the dynamic motion of the horse with rider - I don't know the proper name of this motion, let's call it a leaping horse. It is something we can find in Middle-East/Indian/European art, perhaps in later Javanese manuscript illuminations or Wayang, but until now I haven't seen anything comparable from East Javanese period. Also exactly the same spatial rendering of wheels of carriage (and the animals which are drawing it) can be find on Wayang Kulit figures, which date back to 19th century. I also would like to address a section in van Duuren's conclusion I have a problem with. It defends authenticity of the object and he writes: "Moreover, do so at a time when Javanese antiquities were only of value to a small number of ethnological museums and an extremely small circle of experts. After all, a commercial market for collectors, antique dealers and auctions where many Asian antiquities are handled - and where an Indo-Javanese keris presented as genuine would not attract a high price if nobody had realized it was a fake - did not exist." In the collection of Raffles there are 132 metal figurines. Most of them are from Middle-/East-Javanese period, but over 20 are datable of end of 1700ties/beginning of 1800ties. They are very crude forgeries of art from earlier periods, collected in 1811-1816. That means that already at that time Javanese must have seen here a possibility of profit and started to make these again after a gap of about 300 years. How much more advanced the "art" could have been in 1880ties! Let's remember - the Knaud's keris entered the reality as a submission to "Exhibition of Products of Some Brances of Industry and Art", was given the second prize, and apparently was part of a collection, which "has never been described anywhere", not the best provenance we can think of. I think, there is a quite high percent of possibility the Knaud's Keris is a hoax, and this percent did not become smaller with me after reading the booklet. On the other side, I must accept, that I actually know almost nothing. I would like to make an illustration of that feeling with another keris, the state heirloom of Kutai Kartanagara. The tradition says, it comes from time of Majapahit, it is depicted as drawing in Schmeltz's article from 1890. Regrettably this is the only photograph of it I could find - enjoy! Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 3rd November 2022 at 08:43 PM.

3rd November 2022, 08:39 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,238	The possible possible model for Knaud's keris? Attached Images

3rd November 2022, 09:55 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	Yes Gustav, precisely so. This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum. That depression in the blade edge was caused by damage it is not original to the statue. The info board identifies this statue as either:- Garuda, or Minak Jinggo, or Maha Kala, or Bairawa. In other words they're not too sure exactly who it is supposed to be. So, exactly when was that statue discovered and made available for public viewing? This would have been before the Trowulan Museum existed because the museum was built in 1924, and Charles Knaud had the keris in his possession long before this. When we know more about the statue, then we have the possibility of knowing more about when the Knaud keris was actually produced. When I photographed the statue I made no connection between it & The Knaud, it was only later when I was looking at my photos of it that it dawned on me that I was looking at the inspiration for the Knaud Keris. However, even without that gift of the statue with its damaged keris, there are far too many abberations present in The Knaud for it to be accepted as a product of the Majapahit era. ADDITION Gustav, I read your post #17 before your Post #16, but now I have looked at your #16. You have reached the same conclusions about The Knaud that I reached about 40 years ago, but was unable to substantiate. I reached my conclusions after I saw recently produced "Majapahit" artefacts that were being purchased in Solo by an American who lived in Solo and made his living by sending these brand new relics of past times to dealers and auction houses in USA & Europe. Then I learnt how present day forgers in Jawa did not produce forgeries for the open market, but already had the victim in mind and were in the process of priming him for the Big Hit while the forged object was being prepared. A particularly well known keris and art collector who was internationally famous as an authority on Javanese art was a favourite target of the Shonky Brotherhood. Recognised reference books that deal with Javanese art contain photos of blatant fakes, the same is true of museum exhibits, and items in private collections. We are not talking about little money here, we are talking about very, very big money. This is still going on, right now, as I am writing this. The reason I began to deal keris in the first place was because it was very, very obvious that in Indonesia the knowledge was held by the dealers --- as much is said in Centhini, that was 200 years ago. To truly understand any antiques or antiquities in Jawa & Bali one needs to become a dealer, nobody has the slightest possibility of learning much at all by standing outside and looking in through a window. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd November 2022 at 10:19 PM. Reason: addition

3rd November 2022, 12:48 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	Thank you for your comments JYS. In fact, I've been looking at pictures of that Knaud for years, I mean literally years. I've probably looked at The Knaud pictures more than I've looked at any other keris or pictures of keris. In spite of all that looking I could not make up my mind in respect of two little questions, just little questions, maybe most people would not think that these little questions were even questions, just idle, wandering curiosity. But to me these questions were the single biggest unanswered questions about The Knaud, and they were unanswerable, because The Knaud was lost, but then it just sort of magically reappeared again, it came into the hands of a highly respected writer on the keris, David Van Duuren, and a door opened. Mr. Van Duuren took the whole legend apart, top to bottom, and in the process answered many questions, something that I am very grateful for. But he did not answer the two questions that had worked their way to the top of my question list. So, after reading his book, I wrote to him and asked if the gonjo was round or square, most especially if it was round or square at the point where it exited the gonjo, I also asked if there was any evidence if it had ever had a metuk fitted, and if it had an integral (iras) gonjo or if the gonjo was separate to the blade. Mr. Van Duuren responded promptly and without equivocation:- 1) the pesi is round 2) there is no evidence of a metuk 3) the gonjo is iras, ie, it was forged as integral with the blade I currently have custody of four typical keris buda, well, three are typical, the fourth is much larger than typical, but also of typical buda form, one of the three has lost its original gonjo and its gonjo has been replaced. All four have or had gonjos that were forged separately to the body of the blade. Apart from these four KB's I also have two transitional keris, that is, keris that bear some features of a KB and some features of the Modern Keris. Both these transitional keris have gonjos that were forged separately to the body of the blade. In the past I have had other KB's that I passed on to other people. I have also handled KB's that belonged to other people, or that were for sale and I did not buy. I have only ever seen one genuine old KB that had a gonjo iras and that keris was a cast bronze keris. I have never seen a genuine old KB that had been made with a round pesi. In Jawa, the very first thing that any keris literate person looks at in order to form an opinion on the age of a very old keris is the pesi at the point where it emerges from the gonjo. If it has a round pesi it is eliminated from consideration as being of extreme age. So, is it possible for me to accept that a keris with a round pesi and an integral gonjo actually was produced prior to the collapse of Majapahit? But the pesi and the gonjo are only two questionable characteristics, there are also other things that raise questions.

3rd November 2022, 05:17 PM	#3
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 425	I don't have the book, nor have I read it. The only information I have is from the posts here, and the pictures that I can see on my computer screen. The question I have relates to the apparent wear on the carved figures: how might it have occurred, on an object that would presumably have haf great significance? It seems odd that this should be the case. Was it an intentional part of the design, to emulate the worn figures on carved stone statuary? On first glance, that was my impression. My experience with sculpture from the area of its origin is nearly nil, as is most of my understanding of the keris, and indeed of the culture from whence it sprang, so I hope my effrontery in commenting will be viewed in that context, and forgiven for its lack of sophistication.

3rd November 2022, 10:43 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	Thank you for your comments Bob. Gustav cut through what I had hoped was going to be a few pages of group investigation, keeping interested parties busy thinking through propositions and coming to conclusions for a couple of weeks, but what he has posted is absolutely correct. It still might be interesting to look at all the other irregularities with The Knaud, but I believe we can now see that we have all been just a little bit misled for the last 100 years or so. Here is a link to a very good colour photo of both sides of The Knaud. https://www.artoftheancestors.com/bl...vid-van-duuren The overlay is bronze that is permanently fixed, the dark patches on the bronze are copper repairs. We do not know at this point how that overlay was fixed to the iron body, it might have been made and then soldered in place, or it might have been carved into the overlay of bronze at the time when this object was produced. Anything that we believe we can deduce from looking at photos of this Knaud keris must be measured by the understanding that we are almost certainly looking at a post Majapahit production, probably post Mojo by a few hundred years or so. But one thing that does come out of this close look at The Knaud is that David Van Duuren's book is now a publication that I believe every truly serious student of the keris needs in his book case, together with notes on tipped in half pages. In my opinion, Mr. Van Duuren's book has now become just as essential as all the other classic keris publications.

4th November 2022, 02:41 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	Thanks for that Kai. I did a quick search but I could not find where I'd posted it. As I wrote in my previous post I did not really make a connection when I saw the statue, I was too busy dodging the photo police, it was only much later that I made the connection. Yes, true that if the conman had made something that stayed true to type The Knaud would probably have been accepted as real, but if you want to sell something for big duit to an art collector, it helps if what you are presenting is a dated one off, and way, way back the internet was not around. I most sincerely doubt that even the smartest shonk could pull off something like The Knaud today. But they do still pull off some pretty incredible coups. I recently saw evidence of what I would guess was a multi-million dollar bit of shonkery. How these dogs sleep at night is beyond my understanding.

10th December 2023, 11:30 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	I am bringing this thread out of hiding so that I do not need to respond to several private emails, the questions in those emails were all similar, and all from people who are planning a visit to Jawa & Bali. A reading of this thread will, I believe, be of considerable assistance to those people. It might even help to save them some folding money too.