Unknown Short Sword

kronckew · 19th October 2022, 07:06 PM

The hasyia is a Nepali sickle, ubiquitous to the farmer women for harvesting crops, it is carried on a rope baldric attached to a wooden carrier block & most of the blade is exposed, generally carried on the back. Certainly would not recommend anyone attacking a lady carrying one with anything less than a rifle from a distance.

The OP's blade could be a more shallow curved variant.

A fancy one for us westerners from a khukuri company, and a tool rack with three, a straight one, and another on it that looks rather similar 5to OP's, just all are rusty.

David · 19th October 2022, 10:06 PM

I think that with a piece like this we might not be able to make a pure ethnographic connection. We aren't considering this to be a particularly old weapon, are we? It has already been noted that the blade is made from a large rasp or file. In contemporary times blade smiths can get ideas and parts from all kinds of sources. I certainly see the similarity of the hilt and handle to the kukri. Does that necessarily mean the origin is Nepal? what is a smith just happened to have these parts lying about and decided to fit them into his next project. People build with the parts they have available to them, ergo the file as a blade.
The shape of the blade is indeed very much like a Filipino ginunting or tinari/binulang. And my first thought when i saw that tab of leather on the sheath was that same feature is often found on tengere sheaths like the one i posted below from Charles' collection. Of course, these traits don't identify this definitely a Filipino anymore than the ferrule identify it as Nepal. It seems a bit tricky to place the origin of a weapon on merely one feature like a ferrule. Since no one has ever seen anything else quite like this it is possible that this could have been a one-off project made by a smith from just about anywhere, using influences of other ethnographic weapons he has seen...or it could indeed be a less common swords from Nepal that no one here has ever seen before.

RobT · 20th October 2022, 04:21 AM

David,

Please allow me to take your points in order. This will allow you and other forum members to spot any flaws in my reasoning.
As far as age goes, I am more inclined to say that the condition of all the components of the piece, rather than it having been made from a file indicates 20th century manufacture. Even if the file were not Nepali made, the British have been a presence in Nepal for a long time and it could have been one of theirs. As an example, 19th century Assam daos were often fashioned from hoes taken from tea plantations and often still carry the name or logo of the English firm that made the original tool.
As an aside, I am very sure my piece is a weapon but I’m not 100% sure that it is a combat weapon. I can’t agree that it was used for vegetable harvest or clearing brush because it’s too large and heavy for that, Nor can see it being used by by a butcher for livestock slaughter because the quality is too good. However, I can see it functioning as a sort of déclassé ram dao in a small village.
Back on topic, I would now like to address the hilt and ferrule matter. I find it hard to accept that a smith from outside of Nepal (or Northern India adjacent to Nepal) would have a khukri ferrule and a Nepali style hilt just lying around and I find it equally unlikely that a smith from outside of that sociocultural area would choose to fashion a blade to fit such items. It sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Besides, who could he sell it to? Who would want to buy a sword with a hilt and ferrule that looks weird? Blades get around but hilts, hilt furniture, and sheaths don’t. Blades from Western Europe were exported all over the world but they are found without exception fitted with native hilts and sheaths.
While the blade profile of my sword to some extent matches that of some Philippine blades, the blade features aren’t a good match. First of all, many of the traditional blades are chisel ground and the ricassi are of a shape typical for such Philippine blades (the modern made versions are an exception).
That leaves us with the sheath. A wood sheath wrapped with incised black leather stitched up the back is stereotypical of the Indian subcontinent. So too is the practice of binding the upper part of the wood pieces together with twine under the leather. AFAIK, that style of binding isn't found anywhere in the Philippines. While a leather flap can be found on many Visayan sheaths, the style of the flap on my sheath doesn’t really match the Philippine ones.
In conclusion, we have a hilt that is typical of Nepal, we have a ferrule that is typical of Nepal, we have a sheath that is typical of Nepal, and we have a blade of an unknown type. Would not the most logical conclusion be that this is an unknown type of short sword from Nepal or an area within close proximity to Nepal?

Sincerely,
RobT

Interested Party · 20th October 2022, 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=RobT;275700]As far as age goes, I am more inclined to say that the condition of all the components of the piece, rather than it having been made from a file indicates 20th century manufacture. Even if the file were not Nepali made, the British have been a presence in Nepal for a long time and it could have been one of theirs. /QUOTE]

Is it a file? At first glance I thought so but when I looked closer, I am not sure the marks aren't decorative. They have an appearance somewhere between a basketweave and a meander. If it is a file, it seems a distinctive cut pattern that could help identify a location of manufacture.

I would love to see a picture of the spine to see if the cuts are on the spine as well that would indicate it was an old file without a blind edge. Also, I would like to see distal taper. Since the ricasso doesn't have the pattern, it would have had to have been a very thick file (not a rasp, those have notches cut with the spikey chips raised) and a distal taper at the end of the ricasso for the smith to grind out the lines.

To be my own devil's advocate I do see six lines from the "file" on the saber grind, but to its right is almost a folded steel pattern. The difficulties of analysis from a single picture.

kronckew · 21st October 2022, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Is it a file? ...

The pattern looks very much like a large hi carbon steel farriers rasp. They are used by farriers to file horse hooves, and I'd guess other hoofed animals, as well as used in wood work. They are frequently used in knife making, and the distinctive open cross-cut pattern may be partially left as a decorative sign of it's past.

Top: the rasp
Bottom: a knife made from a rasp, with deeper pattern showing

David · 20th October 2022, 03:22 PM

Rob, i believe you may have misunderstood the tract i was taking here. I am not advocating that this is a Filipino weapon. My point was that unless you can find other blades that fit this profile and dress, that it is difficult to establish much of anything about it's origins. All we have are guesses. I also agree with IP that it is difficult for us to confirm any of your conclusions without better, more detailed photos. It is not that i don't believe you could be correct. It is just that i don't believe we have enough conclusive information on this piece yet to make those conclusions.

kai · 20th October 2022, 11:41 PM

There certainly are some rarer blade styles in Nepal and surroundings. Especially examples of lesser age may be tough to attribute to specific countries/areas though.

Here an example with a scabbard that is also seen with khukuri; I've seen it attributed to Newari origins.

Regards,
Kai

19th October 2022, 07:06 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,169	The hasyia is a Nepali sickle, ubiquitous to the farmer women for harvesting crops, it is carried on a rope baldric attached to a wooden carrier block & most of the blade is exposed, generally carried on the back. Certainly would not recommend anyone attacking a lady carrying one with anything less than a rifle from a distance. The OP's blade could be a more shallow curved variant. A fancy one for us westerners from a khukuri company, and a tool rack with three, a straight one, and another on it that looks rather similar 5to OP's, just all are rusty. Attached Images

19th October 2022, 10:06 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,101	I think that with a piece like this we might not be able to make a pure ethnographic connection. We aren't considering this to be a particularly old weapon, are we? It has already been noted that the blade is made from a large rasp or file. In contemporary times blade smiths can get ideas and parts from all kinds of sources. I certainly see the similarity of the hilt and handle to the kukri. Does that necessarily mean the origin is Nepal? what is a smith just happened to have these parts lying about and decided to fit them into his next project. People build with the parts they have available to them, ergo the file as a blade. The shape of the blade is indeed very much like a Filipino ginunting or tinari/binulang. And my first thought when i saw that tab of leather on the sheath was that same feature is often found on tengere sheaths like the one i posted below from Charles' collection. Of course, these traits don't identify this definitely a Filipino anymore than the ferrule identify it as Nepal. It seems a bit tricky to place the origin of a weapon on merely one feature like a ferrule. Since no one has ever seen anything else quite like this it is possible that this could have been a one-off project made by a smith from just about anywhere, using influences of other ethnographic weapons he has seen...or it could indeed be a less common swords from Nepal that no one here has ever seen before. Attached Images

20th October 2022, 04:21 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 476	Occam's Razor Reasoning David, Please allow me to take your points in order. This will allow you and other forum members to spot any flaws in my reasoning. As far as age goes, I am more inclined to say that the condition of all the components of the piece, rather than it having been made from a file indicates 20th century manufacture. Even if the file were not Nepali made, the British have been a presence in Nepal for a long time and it could have been one of theirs. As an example, 19th century Assam daos were often fashioned from hoes taken from tea plantations and often still carry the name or logo of the English firm that made the original tool. As an aside, I am very sure my piece is a weapon but I’m not 100% sure that it is a combat weapon. I can’t agree that it was used for vegetable harvest or clearing brush because it’s too large and heavy for that, Nor can see it being used by by a butcher for livestock slaughter because the quality is too good. However, I can see it functioning as a sort of déclassé ram dao in a small village. Back on topic, I would now like to address the hilt and ferrule matter. I find it hard to accept that a smith from outside of Nepal (or Northern India adjacent to Nepal) would have a khukri ferrule and a Nepali style hilt just lying around and I find it equally unlikely that a smith from outside of that sociocultural area would choose to fashion a blade to fit such items. It sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Besides, who could he sell it to? Who would want to buy a sword with a hilt and ferrule that looks weird? Blades get around but hilts, hilt furniture, and sheaths don’t. Blades from Western Europe were exported all over the world but they are found without exception fitted with native hilts and sheaths. While the blade profile of my sword to some extent matches that of some Philippine blades, the blade features aren’t a good match. First of all, many of the traditional blades are chisel ground and the ricassi are of a shape typical for such Philippine blades (the modern made versions are an exception). That leaves us with the sheath. A wood sheath wrapped with incised black leather stitched up the back is stereotypical of the Indian subcontinent. So too is the practice of binding the upper part of the wood pieces together with twine under the leather. AFAIK, that style of binding isn't found anywhere in the Philippines. While a leather flap can be found on many Visayan sheaths, the style of the flap on my sheath doesn’t really match the Philippine ones. In conclusion, we have a hilt that is typical of Nepal, we have a ferrule that is typical of Nepal, we have a sheath that is typical of Nepal, and we have a blade of an unknown type. Would not the most logical conclusion be that this is an unknown type of short sword from Nepal or an area within close proximity to Nepal? Sincerely, RobT

20th October 2022, 03:06 PM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 437	[QUOTE=RobT;275700]As far as age goes, I am more inclined to say that the condition of all the components of the piece, rather than it having been made from a file indicates 20th century manufacture. Even if the file were not Nepali made, the British have been a presence in Nepal for a long time and it could have been one of theirs. /QUOTE] Is it a file? At first glance I thought so but when I looked closer, I am not sure the marks aren't decorative. They have an appearance somewhere between a basketweave and a meander. If it is a file, it seems a distinctive cut pattern that could help identify a location of manufacture. I would love to see a picture of the spine to see if the cuts are on the spine as well that would indicate it was an old file without a blind edge. Also, I would like to see distal taper. Since the ricasso doesn't have the pattern, it would have had to have been a very thick file (not a rasp, those have notches cut with the spikey chips raised) and a distal taper at the end of the ricasso for the smith to grind out the lines. To be my own devil's advocate I do see six lines from the "file" on the saber grind, but to its right is almost a folded steel pattern. The difficulties of analysis from a single picture. Attached Images

20th October 2022, 11:41 PM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	There certainly are some rarer blade styles in Nepal and surroundings. Especially examples of lesser age may be tough to attribute to specific countries/areas though. Here an example with a scabbard that is also seen with khukuri; I've seen it attributed to Newari origins. Regards, Kai Attached Images

20th October 2022, 03:22 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,101	Rob, i believe you may have misunderstood the tract i was taking here. I am not advocating that this is a Filipino weapon. My point was that unless you can find other blades that fit this profile and dress, that it is difficult to establish much of anything about it's origins. All we have are guesses. I also agree with IP that it is difficult for us to confirm any of your conclusions without better, more detailed photos. It is not that i don't believe you could be correct. It is just that i don't believe we have enough conclusive information on this piece yet to make those conclusions.