visayan kris

[tanaruz]

Hello all,

I have with me a Visayan kris (unfortunately, no scabbard).

What really surprises me is the...well I really don't know what to make or describe it, the open 'structure' that runs along the middle of the blade.

I haven't seen anything like this before (Moro or non-moro kris).

Really appreciate any inputs/info. Is this a babaylan piece?

Kind regards

Yves

[tanaruz]

Hi,

update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.'

There we go. From the horse's mouth.

Regards

Yves

[Bob A]

Nice bit of field research!

It might be worthwhile to post the name of the blacksmith and his village for future reference.

[Ian]

Yves,

Great story and interesting piece. Since this is a weapon without a cultural link to the Moro people, I'm not sure we should call it a kris. It is certainly a wavy-bladed or flambé sword, but it lacks a gangya and other features of a Moro kris. Your blade's style looks closer to the wavy-bladed knives and swords of central Luzon, which I would also not call kris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

Yves,

Great story and interesting piece. Since this is a weapon without a cultural link to the Moro people, I'm not sure we should call it a kris. It is certainly a wavy-bladed or flambé sword, but it lacks a gangya and other features of a Moro kris. Your blade's style looks closer to the wavy-bladed knives and swords of central Luzon, which I would also not call kris.

I'm glad you said this instead of me this time. LOL!

[Ian]

I'm glad you said this instead of me this time. LOL!

[chmorshuutz]

Originally Posted by Ian

Yves,

Great story and interesting piece. Since this is a weapon without a cultural link to the Moro people, I'm not sure we should call it a kris. It is certainly a wavy-bladed or flambé sword, but it lacks a gangya and other features of a Moro kris. Your blade's style looks closer to the wavy-bladed knives and swords of central Luzon, which I would also not call kris.

Along with their counterparts in Luzon, they are called kris by the blacksmiths and locals, there's no other term used for it, so I don't see the problem here especially when they don't explicitly add "Moro" in it.

In a way, it is similar with panabas. A panabas in Tagalog region is in some ways similar, but not exactly the same, with panabas in Mindanao, but it doesn't make the former any less legitimate just because it doesn't exactly look the same or not as popular as its southern counterpart.

[Ian]

chmorshuutz,

You raise a very valid point. The name of an item within its own culture should be respected. By extension, a wavy bladed dagger made in Germany or Japan, for example, could also be labeled a kris if the maker and local consumers think that is a good name for it.

However, there is another way to look at this. (David please add your expertise here too). In the Muslim world of S.E. Asia, especially in Indonesia, the keris/kris has spiritual and mystical significance. It is not always a wavy-bladed knife or sword (it can be straight-bladed also), however it occupies a special place in the culture of its people. Those cultural beliefs should be respected. A keris/kris is not just a wavy-bladed item. Using the term keris/kris for an item that may superficially resemble a keris/kris misses the inherent properties and significance of those items in the originating cultures.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

chmorshuutz,

You raise a very valid point. The name of an item within its own culture should be respected. By extension, a wavy bladed dagger made in Germany or Japan, for example, could also be labeled a kris if the maker and local consumers think that is a good name for it.

However, there is another way to look at this. (David please add your expertise here too). In the Muslim world of S.E. Asia, especially in Indonesia, the keris/kris has spiritual and mystical significance. It is not always a wavy-bladed knife or sword (it can be straight-bladed also), however it occupies a special place in the culture of its people. Those cultural beliefs should be respected. A keris/kris is not just a wavy-bladed item. Using the term keris/kris for an item that may superficially resemble a keris/kris misses the inherent properties and significance of those items in the originating cultures.

Not sure i could say it any better than that Ian.
I also believe we should respect the indigenous names of weapons when we are able to ascertain such names, though collectors for many years have used generic names that simply mean sword or dagger in those respective cultures rather than specific names. A keris/kris is a very specific form of blade in both Indonesia and the lands of the Moro (though the Moro have many more specific names for there sword length kris dependent upon both the specific tribe and whether the blades are straight, wavy or half and half). A Javanese keris, where the name originates, is a very specific form that requires an asymmetric blade and a gonjo (either departed or incorporated) to be considered a keris. This basic form does indeed persist in the Moro form, which many of us use the spelling "kris" simply as a way to immediately distinguish it from it's Indonesian cousins.
These wavy blades from Luzon and other areas of northern Philippines have been around for some time. I don't know much about there origins, though i suspect some of them might have once been Moro kris that were reformed and re-hited. We are being told here that blacksmiths in Luzon do indeed refer to them as "kris". While i would certainly not argue that point with them i do wonder if this was always the case or if it is a more recent nomenclature for them. In the world at large any dagger or sword with a wavy blade seems to get the label of kris. I see no reason why the same might happen in modern day Luzon. I cannot say if than makes the name truly indigenous or not. But as a collector of Indonesian keris (and to a lesser extent, Moro kris), i will continue to maintain that there are rather specific features that are necessary in the form of the blade for it to truly be called a keris/kris. For me this is just being respectful of the original culture in which the keris/kris developed.

[kronckew]

I think the central gash weakens the sword seriously.


Here's one we prepared earlier...

(happened to see it a couple days ago web surfing)


note where the blades broke. I'd bet that's where the owner hit something.


Fixing a broken sword


THe OP's swordlike object will likely break similarly, if you actually hit something with it...