Help with ID on a Solingen 'Tree' mark

[Radboud]

Thank you for the feedback Jim. It is as you say an unusual configuration, especially the orientation of the wolf and that pannel in between the fullers.

I saw Boeker's mark in Kinman but discounted the connection as his tree is split into two trunks and doesn't show the roots. That the blade is English made is another possibility that just muddies the water. But we can't discount the possibility that all the markings are spurious, after all, if it's good enough for the smiths from Solingen, then why not the smiths from England?

[werecow]

Lovely sword. One of these is very high on the wish list. On Walloon swords the SAHAGVM is also combined with a Wolf of Passau but of course there's only a single fuller.

Can't be much help with the tree, though... Is there such a thing as a visual search engine for makers marks?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by werecow

Is there such a thing as a visual search engine for makers marks?

I've tried using Google image search, but it doesn't return a lot of results. My guess is that there just aren't enough people posting them.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I've tried using Google image search, but it doesn't return a lot of results. My guess is that there just aren't enough people posting them.

Yeah, I tried that as well without luck. But a dedicated database of blade marks with a specialized image matching algorithm might yield better results. Maybe one day I'll find some time to invest in making something like that (although I'd need a database of maker's marks, which is presumably non-trivial to acquire).

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Thank you for the feedback Jim. It is as you say an unusual configuration, especially the orientation of the wolf and that pannel in between the fullers.

I saw Boeker's mark in Kinman but discounted the connection as his tree is split into two trunks and doesn't show the roots. That the blade is English made is another possibility that just muddies the water. But we can't discount the possibility that all the markings are spurious, after all, if it's good enough for the smiths from Solingen, then why not the smiths from England?

This is certainly an anomaly, and the character of the blade fullers resembles in. degree those of many of the mortuary type swords assembled in these periods during the English civil wars.

There can be no doubt the markings are spurious, in the same way they were applied in Solingen, most of the Hounslow blades were indeed German.
There are references suggesting that even blades from Solingen were marked as 'from Hounslow'. The lettering and configuration of the SAHAGUM as I note are atypical for that application as used in Solingen. It seems that in most cases these 'Sahagum' marked blades typically went into North Europe which is why they are well known on 'walloons'.

There are of course certain Hounslow smiths who did place their names on blades; Kinndt, Hoppie and Hopkins but this was not a consistent case, many of the blades simply had the running wolf.
I have a 'mortuary' with typical ANDREA FERARA blade which is certainly Hounslow c. 1650 as identified in Bezdek (p.281). Attached....pretty rough, and dont have clear pic of Andrea Ferara blade
.
According to Bezdek the Germans were producing blades for Benjamin Stone after 1631, the year he was awarded the drapes mark by Cutlers Co.
The mark had previously been owned by William Bals who died 1630.
As I say, I do not have image of this mark, and the idea of grape plant or vine is just a suggestion. It would seem that English cutlers were using punzones or marks which do not appear in the usual compendiums. If anyone has Levines Book of Knives (1985?) it seems there are some markings in there.
Whatever the case, I think this is possibly a Hounslow product c. 1630s-40s.
despite the unusual and irregularly executed lettering etc.

[Radboud]

The sword arrived yesterday, so can put up some more photos. My first impression is that it's a lot lighter than I expected, at 860 grams. The blade is 830mm long, but has lost a bit off the point.

It's also quite thin: (Profile / Distal taper)

• Ricasso: 35.3mm / 5.6mm
• 200mm: 30.5mm / 4.1mm
• 400mm: 26.1mm / 3.4mm
• 600mm: 23.8mm / 2.5mm
• 800mm: 15.3mm / 1.4mm

Although this profile is similar to the backsword blade on my 1796 HC dress sword:

• Ricasso: 32.0mm / 6.1mm
• 200mm: 28.9mm / 4.5mm
• 400mm: 27.7mm / 3.2mm
• 600mm: 25.2mm / 2.7mm
• 800mm: 16.5mm / 1.3mm

I'm guessing that the grip wire was redone at some point, possibly in the 1800s? Although the Turkshead knot looks good so it might be older but that seems unlikely.

All in all an interesting piece, even with the peculiar 'panel' on the blade. Will need to keep an eye open for similar blade profiles to compare.

[werecow]

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by werecow

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

It's another head, just the face is a bit worn. These faces are a prominent feature of these hilts and where the name 'Mortuary' sword comes from. Late Victorian collectors theorised that the face was the martyred King Charles II.

But as swords with these decorations were carried by both sides of the English Civil War, and there exist examples that can be dated to before the death of Charles II, this is an unlikely explanation. Possibly another one of those mysteries that can only be resolved with a time machine

[urbanspaceman]

It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme.
As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war.
I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind.
BTW, it is a magnificent sword.

[kronckew]

Another found online: