Walloon, not really?

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Whilst I intend to base my articel on the four swords already in my collection I am also hoping to include other examples as they come to light.

At this stage the references I am using are:
BEZDEK Richard H German Swords and Sword Makers Pp 187
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 9 9 (175)
Cleveland Museum of Art Catalogue of Arms and Armour Vol. 4 Pp 66-68 Plate 234
KUPPELMAYR Waffen-Sammlung
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Page 228 pictures 173, 174, 175, 176, 177
George Neumann, Swords & Blades of the American Revolution, pg.72 #33.
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury pp 53 Plate 64
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 2 Pp 110 Plate 123
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 93 Plate 239
I have on order “The Visser Collection Arms of the Netherlands Vol. I Part 3” its on its way to Australia.

I was wondering if anyone has any other reference recommendations and/or any research material they would be prepared to share. Naturally I would credit them as the source.

In particular I am looking for:
• period paintings of soldiers with these swords
• the identity of the nations that used them, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, Bavaria etc
• were they manufactured in Germany or just the blades with hilts made locally?
• were they for cavalry or infantry or both.
• Where did they originate etc


Every source I check tells a different story thus far. Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Hi Cathey,

I strongly discourage you from identifying these type of swords as Schwedendegen or Schwedensäbel since this means Swedish sword and sabre (not Swiss!). People from non-European continents often mix up Sweden and Switzerland which have some similarities in character but are very different countries in Europe.

As I mentioned in post #2 already: “Nobody in Sweden knows why the Germans sometimes call it Schwedendegen/Schwedensäbel (Swedish sword/sabre). It seems to be a German term dating back to the 30-year war. These swords were never common in Sweden.”

[Cathey]

Hi Vitrix,

As you can see from my previous posts I now refer to these as Campaign swords. I used the term Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre) in the header of this post as it has been used on other sites and I hoped it might draw in more information.

Thank you for response, it is useful to note that these swords were not common in Sweden.

I am actaully wondering if I should perhaps start an entirely new thread in the hope of illiciting more information. These are proving very difficult to research with any degredd of confidence.

Cheers Cathey

[Hotspur]

I have found the thread to be very informative and have restrained my own thoughts due to real ignorance of the scope in time we are looking at.

The more I read of the descriptive terms, it seems like a timeline needs to be included to categorize the specific forms. Walloons best regarding the late century infantry swords.

My one example may be later 17th century, with the fully developed inboard plate. Also a plain broad hewing blade of cavalry length.

Some descriptions get parsed to death as to literal meanings, so that just adds more to simply calling everything a walloon (when they are not).

Thanks for this thread!

GC

[Cathey]

Hi Hotspur

Thankyou for posting this sword, a very nice example of this particular group. Yet another variation of a Kings head mark, it looks like the face on yours is slightly turned towards the front which I havn't seen before. This and some healthy debate over other variations has prompted me to make this a sub section of my article and try and conclude who used which particuar Kings Head. The kings head mark in some form appears to feature on many examples of these swords.

If you have any other swords with a kings head mark I would love to see them.

Cheers Cathey

[Cathey]

With regard to the kings head mark on blades which caused me to revisit my references. The variations are astounding, even when they can be attributed to a single maker. Attached is what I have found in my references so far. I will try not to get distracted by this area of research but it will certainly be worth revisiting when the Walloon/campaign article is complete.

Cheer Cathey

[toaster5sqn]

So here is the walloon type sword with a kings head mark I found in the Auckland War Memorial Museum, which they had mislabeled as a rapier!
My initial research into the Kings Head turned up the Wundes family but upon further digging I figured it had to be Martino Antonio because it faced left. Now you show me pictures that say the Wundes family mark could face either way. If anyone has any firm idea of this exact mark it would be appreciated, no other marks are to be seen on the blade.

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Whilst I intend to base my articel on the four swords already in my collection I am also hoping to include other examples as they come to light.

At this stage the references I am using are:
BEZDEK Richard H German Swords and Sword Makers Pp 187
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 9 9 (175)
Cleveland Museum of Art Catalogue of Arms and Armour Vol. 4 Pp 66-68 Plate 234
KUPPELMAYR Waffen-Sammlung
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Page 228 pictures 173, 174, 175, 176, 177
George Neumann, Swords & Blades of the American Revolution, pg.72 #33.
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury pp 53 Plate 64
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 2 Pp 110 Plate 123
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 93 Plate 239
I have on order “The Visser Collection Arms of the Netherlands Vol. I Part 3” its on its way to Australia.

I was wondering if anyone has any other reference recommendations and/or any research material they would be prepared to share. Naturally I would credit them as the source.

In particular I am looking for:
• period paintings of soldiers with these swords
• the identity of the nations that used them, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, Bavaria etc
• were they manufactured in Germany or just the blades with hilts made locally?
• were they for cavalry or infantry or both.
• Where did they originate etc


Every source I check tells a different story thus far. Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Cathey

Hi Cathy,
Found a painting of Fürst Johann Moritz zu Nassau Siegen with the sword of the defeated potuguese Viceadmiral Antonio d' Andrade.It's painted around 1640 and is now in the mueum of the townhall of Vlanen in the Netherlands.It seems to me that he helds a kind of " Felddegen " in his hand.I took the Photo from a Biographie of Johann Moritz and asked the museum for a better picture, but didn't got answer yet.

[Tordenskiold1721]

It's been my understanding that the term Schwedendegen was slang originating towards the end of the Danish phase of the 30-year war and used during the continuations in the Swedish wars up until the end of the great Northern war as slang term for a sword to be used against the Sweds. As a "degen" for use against the Swedes". There are some literature references for this, but I will have to return with specific references when I am with my library. Until then, it is only my five cent's inputs

https://bruun-rasmussen.dk/m/lots/D6...iod%3Dall_time

The link is to the latest one I bought, of this type.

In old inventory lists they are often referred to as commissioned degen, as they were commissioned and approved for production and issuing holding the commissions specification. Feltedegen is a very broad and general term, that includes various types of swords, if my understanding, based on contemporary literature and inventory lists are correct. I been wrong before and could be wrong again....

The armory at Skokloster and the castle can be seen in this documentary in Swedish with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRpk4ESKum0&t=15s