Use of the Sword by American Indian Tribes

mahratt · 8th September 2022, 09:40 AM

I think that in the second half of the 19th century, long saber blades were used most often as attributes of power. At the same time, in the 18th century and earlier, European long blades were undoubtedly used by the local population of America as weapons.
Detail of hide painting sent to Switzerland from Sonora, Mexico in 1758 by Philipp Segesser (1 September 1689 - 28 September 1762). Assumed to represent the 1720 defeat of the Villasur expedition. Supposedly shown in the image is José López Naranjo and Fray Juan Minguez.

fernando · 8th September 2022, 12:26 PM

Good reasoning, Mahratt. In a (sort of) similar situation we have the swords introduced to African natives in an early stage (XV century) and later becoming symbols of power in the xix century (Mbele a Lulendo).

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Jim McDougall · 8th September 2022, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think that in the second half of the 19th century, long saber blades were used most often as attributes of power. At the same time, in the 18th century and earlier, European long blades were undoubtedly used by the local population of America as weapons.
Detail of hide painting sent to Switzerland from Sonora, Mexico in 1758 by Philipp Segesser (1 September 1689 - 28 September 1762). Assumed to represent the 1720 defeat of the Villasur expedition. Supposedly shown in the image is José López Naranjo and Fray Juan Minguez.

Thank you so much for adding this of the Segesser paintings!! which were mentioned earlier as one of the earliest recorded uses of the sword by American Indian tribes. I had the great opportunity to view these in New Mexico in research in which these paintings also showed the presence of a different kind of cuera (leather jacket) than previously known in Spanish colonial culture of the period.

That picture of the Blackfoot with a M1822 British cavalry sword is outstanding! and this is probably of course a studio photo with that sword possibly being one of the CDV props, as common practice of the time. It surely adds context to the presence of these swords in these environments, and begs the question, if the individual saw the sword there and requested being photographed holding it as something known in practice in these times in his tribal setting. Here I would say however that having seen the other images from this museum and in Alberta, it does seem that it is very possible this sword belonged to the warrior, as with the other example seen in earlier post.

Tim Simmons · 8th September 2022, 06:33 PM

The use of metals in the Americas has been a fascination for me for some time. I had the opportunity to go to Mexico City and Lima where in museums you can see the use of nonferrous metals and alloys to make decorative and functional objects mainly weapons. Not being able to examine pieces I could not tell whether the objects where formed by casting alone or by a combination of casting and swaging as in , forging iron and steel , using stone hammers and shaped stone formers. It is not rocket science. A bell with a pea in it is a simple example of manipulating metal. There has been archaeological finds in Alaska of ancient bronze objects you can find about recent finds searching the internet. As has been mentioned the manipulation of metal by the Native Americans is undeniably sophisticated. In the pacific north west metal marvels where made. The Inuit also work metal. I do not want to appear to be a Graham Hancock fan though underwater towns are there, I think iron working has been done long before the European US conquest of the Americas. I am not saying there was smelting 'unless archaeological proof is found' but I do think that iron most probably did arrive early. If you think of the south pacific islands in the late 18th and early 19th century. Metals arrived in islands that where on trade routes first and island not on trade route would not have metals until much wider trade and colonisation. I suggest that south pacific island could not express there culture and art in metal as the North West Pacific native Americans did and do because metal working was new. The work by the north west pacific peoples could have been developed to such brilliant achievement through an old north pacific maritime trade route which for some reason stopped not unlike many trade route in history. Just a suggestion, you know how long held views often get challenged and with evidence can be found wanting.

8th September 2022, 09:40 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I think that in the second half of the 19th century, long saber blades were used most often as attributes of power. At the same time, in the 18th century and earlier, European long blades were undoubtedly used by the local population of America as weapons. Detail of hide painting sent to Switzerland from Sonora, Mexico in 1758 by Philipp Segesser (1 September 1689 - 28 September 1762). Assumed to represent the 1720 defeat of the Villasur expedition. Supposedly shown in the image is José López Naranjo and Fray Juan Minguez. Attached Images

8th September 2022, 12:26 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim not minding with this imense digression ... Good reasoning, Mahratt. In a (sort of) similar situation we have the swords introduced to African natives in an early stage (XV century) and later becoming symbols of power in the xix century (Mbele a Lulendo). . Attached Images

8th September 2022, 06:33 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The use of metals in the Americas has been a fascination for me for some time. I had the opportunity to go to Mexico City and Lima where in museums you can see the use of nonferrous metals and alloys to make decorative and functional objects mainly weapons. Not being able to examine pieces I could not tell whether the objects where formed by casting alone or by a combination of casting and swaging as in , forging iron and steel , using stone hammers and shaped stone formers. It is not rocket science. A bell with a pea in it is a simple example of manipulating metal. There has been archaeological finds in Alaska of ancient bronze objects you can find about recent finds searching the internet. As has been mentioned the manipulation of metal by the Native Americans is undeniably sophisticated. In the pacific north west metal marvels where made. The Inuit also work metal. I do not want to appear to be a Graham Hancock fan though underwater towns are there, I think iron working has been done long before the European US conquest of the Americas. I am not saying there was smelting 'unless archaeological proof is found' but I do think that iron most probably did arrive early. If you think of the south pacific islands in the late 18th and early 19th century. Metals arrived in islands that where on trade routes first and island not on trade route would not have metals until much wider trade and colonisation. I suggest that south pacific island could not express there culture and art in metal as the North West Pacific native Americans did and do because metal working was new. The work by the north west pacific peoples could have been developed to such brilliant achievement through an old north pacific maritime trade route which for some reason stopped not unlike many trade route in history. Just a suggestion, you know how long held views often get challenged and with evidence can be found wanting.