Another Black Sea Yataghan out of Africa

mahratt · 1st July 2022, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveF

mahratt, ariel, Jim,

Thanks for your comments and for your thorough summary of the work behind the proper identification of the source of these swords, Jim.

When I first saw this sword it reminded me of something I'd seen on the Africanarms.com website: http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?2...tagan-84-cm-gr This included a link to a sword in the British Museum that was collected in Morocco and presented to the museum in 1892: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...ct/E_Af-5986-a.

It was only when I saw discussions on here from years ago, proving the sword's home to be in the Trabzon region that I understood why African Arms called it a Black Sea Yataghan.

Is it unusual that a weapon native to the eastern Black Sea should have a few examples emerging out of North Africa? Is it possible that some copies of the original design were made in North Africa, or is my imagination getting the better of me?

To paraphrase the famous Latin expression "Viae Domini imperceptae sunt", we can say: "the ways of the swords are inscrutable". Weapons have always been actively moving around the world. So it is not surprising that the sword of Lazes, who, as mentioned above, were sailors, ended up in Morocco. It is also logical that the one who bought Laz Bichak in Morocco (and naturally did not see such a weapon before) decided that this sword was from North Africa.
As an example of unusual "journeys of swords", I suggest looking at this sword in the photo. It is kept in the collection of the Hermitage in St. Petersburg (Russia). We see a Georgian handle and an Indian blade. An unimaginable combination. But nevertheless it exists. And if an Indian blade could have ended up in the Caucasus in the 18th - early 19th centuries, it is not surprising that Laz Bichak ended up in North Africa in the late 19th century

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2022, 03:07 AM

A very wise arms writer once told me, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', as Mahratt has very well explained.
When Mr. Seifert spoke to me regarding the Black Sea yataghan he had (illustrated in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel" he told me it had 'strange' writing on it. I of course have no idea what that might have been, but it may have been Georgian (some have been seen with this).

The one Tirri had is claimed to have 'African' script on it (if I recall correctly), which was the foundation of his North African attribution for the form.

As has been noted, the Laz were quite 'mobile' and known in numerous regions where these have been found. This does not mean that these were made there, but transported there and possibly inscribed as per its owner. Often these kinds of situations were in diplomatic kinds of matters.

ariel · 2nd July 2022, 03:55 AM

There is nothing “ unimaginable” about the khanda with Caucasian handle. Mindboggling yes, but one should also remember that Tiflis or Gurian kindjals of hign quality have pattern-welded damascus within their fullers closely reminiscent of Indian design.
Indian wootz “ ingots” were imported by Georgian masters, and I have an 18th century Georgian wootz saber blade . There were wootz masters in Georgia well before famous Geurk Elisarashvili who is known to us as the “greatet” Georgian swordsmith simply because he was a purveyor of the royal family. There were others before him.
Georgians fought in Abbas I and Nader Shah’s armies in Afghanistan and India.
Kirill Rivkin in his books about Caucasian arms and the history of Eastern sword mentions presence of Indian blacksmiths in Tiflis.
The exchange went in the opposite direction as well: Daghestani masters supplied their kindjal and shashka blades to Aravia and India in the second half of the 19 century.
Globalization was not invented 10-20 years ago:-)

ariel · 2nd July 2022, 04:08 AM

Jim,
Re. Your mention of a Laz Bichagi thought to be of Kurdish-Armenian origin, in the generally execrable album of weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum, #191 is an example of a sword with a typical Laz blade and yataghan-ish “eared” handle, bought in Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) in 1934 and allegedy called “Shoi”. The museum attributed it as “ Front Asia” ( that’s how Central Asia is often called in the Russian literature).

mahratt · 2nd July 2022, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
Re. Your mention of a Laz Bichagi thought to be of Kurdish-Armenian origin, in the generally execrable album of weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum, #191 is an example of a sword with a typical Laz blade and yataghan-ish “eared” handle, bought in Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) in 1934 and allegedy called “Shoi”. The museum attributed it as “ Front Asia” ( that’s how Central Asia is often called in the Russian literature).

Great example. Thank you for remembering. Another proof of how the lack of information limits researchers.

ariel · 3rd July 2022, 05:59 AM

The " Front Asian", allegedly Kazakh, example from Tashkent from the Russian Ethnographic Muzeum was not the only bizarre item from that album.

Items #162 and 163 both with Laz configuration of their blades and eared pommels beat the " Kazakh" one in their astonishing attribution.
One was brought to the muzeum in 1925, another was registered there in 1954. Both were attributed as " Iranians, Kurds", although #163 had yet another potential place of birth: Turkey.

Both blades look suspiciously like reworked Chassepot bayonets. The original Chassepot was slightly yataghan-ish, but both creations exaggerated their double curvatures to caricature-ish proportion. The blade of Chassepot was 57.2 cm, but as the results of extensive "plastic surgery" their lengths ( from base to tip) were shortened to 49 and 55 cm respectively.
Both were given museum labels defining them as " Khopesh". The local weapons gurus in Leningrad never asked themselves a question, how and why Egyptian Khopesh existing as bronze and, later, as iron variant between ~2500 BCE to ~1300 BCE and never appearing anywhere from there on, was reborn 3-4 millennia later out of the blue in Iran or Kurdistan of all places...

The rest of that book was predictably just as illiterate, and the authors expained away their nonsense by : a). not enough time; and b). bureaucratic problems of changing the existing muzeum labels.

Anyone objecting to my use of word "execrable" as an evaluation of that book, might better change his opinion :-((((

Few scientific books and even articles are immediately accepted as 100% correct ( Watson and Crick's paper on the double helix of DNA is a rare exception). But as a minimum, almost any really good academic book will still contain 5% of it as some arguable points. That is how science works.
But publishing a book in which what is new is not right and what is right is not new is simply an exercise in shameless graphomania.
The above book is a stark example of it.

mahratt · 3rd July 2022, 09:35 AM

The topic about Laz Bichak imperceptibly turn out the discussion of the Russian catalog "Edged weapons in the collection of the Russian Ethnographic Museum". Surely, there are a lot of errors. But it's very funny that the even bigger mistakes of Tirri', Lebedinsky' and Jacob' books are downplayed, and we have to "pay tribute" to their authors )))) While the Russian catalog is called "execrable")))) It would be fair to create a new topic dedicated to the errors in the catalog of museum and the errors in Tirri's book. We would collectively analyze the errors, compare these errors in percentage terms, and only then make a decision about which of the books is more "execrable")))

3rd July 2022, 05:59 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The " Front Asian", allegedly Kazakh, example from Tashkent from the Russian Ethnographic Muzeum was not the only bizarre item from that album. Items #162 and 163 both with Laz configuration of their blades and eared pommels beat the " Kazakh" one in their astonishing attribution. One was brought to the muzeum in 1925, another was registered there in 1954. Both were attributed as " Iranians, Kurds", although #163 had yet another potential place of birth: Turkey. Both blades look suspiciously like reworked Chassepot bayonets. The original Chassepot was slightly yataghan-ish, but both creations exaggerated their double curvatures to caricature-ish proportion. The blade of Chassepot was 57.2 cm, but as the results of extensive "plastic surgery" their lengths ( from base to tip) were shortened to 49 and 55 cm respectively. Both were given museum labels defining them as " Khopesh". The local weapons gurus in Leningrad never asked themselves a question, how and why Egyptian Khopesh existing as bronze and, later, as iron variant between ~2500 BCE to ~1300 BCE and never appearing anywhere from there on, was reborn 3-4 millennia later out of the blue in Iran or Kurdistan of all places... The rest of that book was predictably just as illiterate, and the authors expained away their nonsense by : a). not enough time; and b). bureaucratic problems of changing the existing muzeum labels. Anyone objecting to my use of word "execrable" as an evaluation of that book, might better change his opinion :-(((( Few scientific books and even articles are immediately accepted as 100% correct ( Watson and Crick's paper on the double helix of DNA is a rare exception). But as a minimum, almost any really good academic book will still contain 5% of it as some arguable points. That is how science works. But publishing a book in which what is new is not right and what is right is not new is simply an exercise in shameless graphomania. The above book is a stark example of it. Last edited by ariel; 3rd July 2022 at 06:27 AM.

2nd July 2022, 03:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	A very wise arms writer once told me, 'ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries', as Mahratt has very well explained. When Mr. Seifert spoke to me regarding the Black Sea yataghan he had (illustrated in his 1962 book "Schwert Degen Sabel" he told me it had 'strange' writing on it. I of course have no idea what that might have been, but it may have been Georgian (some have been seen with this). The one Tirri had is claimed to have 'African' script on it (if I recall correctly), which was the foundation of his North African attribution for the form. As has been noted, the Laz were quite 'mobile' and known in numerous regions where these have been found. This does not mean that these were made there, but transported there and possibly inscribed as per its owner. Often these kinds of situations were in diplomatic kinds of matters.

2nd July 2022, 03:55 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is nothing “ unimaginable” about the khanda with Caucasian handle. Mindboggling yes, but one should also remember that Tiflis or Gurian kindjals of hign quality have pattern-welded damascus within their fullers closely reminiscent of Indian design. Indian wootz “ ingots” were imported by Georgian masters, and I have an 18th century Georgian wootz saber blade . There were wootz masters in Georgia well before famous Geurk Elisarashvili who is known to us as the “greatet” Georgian swordsmith simply because he was a purveyor of the royal family. There were others before him. Georgians fought in Abbas I and Nader Shah’s armies in Afghanistan and India. Kirill Rivkin in his books about Caucasian arms and the history of Eastern sword mentions presence of Indian blacksmiths in Tiflis. The exchange went in the opposite direction as well: Daghestani masters supplied their kindjal and shashka blades to Aravia and India in the second half of the 19 century. Globalization was not invented 10-20 years ago:-)

2nd July 2022, 04:08 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Re. Your mention of a Laz Bichagi thought to be of Kurdish-Armenian origin, in the generally execrable album of weapons from the Russian Ethnographic Museum, #191 is an example of a sword with a typical Laz blade and yataghan-ish “eared” handle, bought in Tashkent ( Uzbekistan) in 1934 and allegedy called “Shoi”. The museum attributed it as “ Front Asia” ( that’s how Central Asia is often called in the Russian literature).

3rd July 2022, 09:35 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	The topic about Laz Bichak imperceptibly turn out the discussion of the Russian catalog "Edged weapons in the collection of the Russian Ethnographic Museum". Surely, there are a lot of errors. But it's very funny that the even bigger mistakes of Tirri', Lebedinsky' and Jacob' books are downplayed, and we have to "pay tribute" to their authors )))) While the Russian catalog is called "execrable")))) It would be fair to create a new topic dedicated to the errors in the catalog of museum and the errors in Tirri's book. We would collectively analyze the errors, compare these errors in percentage terms, and only then make a decision about which of the books is more "execrable")))