Elephant Goad, Ankus?

Interested Party · 14th June 2022, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Could it be a pangolin?
Regards
Richard

Pangolin....I always forget about them. Yes I believe it could be that.

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2022, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Pangolin....I always forget about them. Yes I believe it could be that.

Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.

werecow · 15th June 2022, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.

They're talking about the decorated curly bit on the goad in the shape of one of those.

mahratt · 15th June 2022, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.

Hello Jim.
One of the pangolin species lives in India - Manis crassicaudata. In India, armor was sometimes made from its horny scales.

But I have a question for everyone discussing the possible image of a pangolin on an Ankus. First, let's try to remember if the pangolin was a sacred animal in India? And are any of his artistic images or images in sculptural compositions known?

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2022, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello Jim.
One of the pangolin species lives in India - Manis crassicaudata. In India, armor was sometimes made from its horny scales.

But I have a question for everyone discussing the possible image of a pangolin on an Ankus. First, let's try to remember if the pangolin was a sacred animal in India? And are any of his artistic images or images in sculptural compositions known?

Thank you Dima. I had no idea they were there as well, and it makes sense that their scales would make good armor.
I apparently misunderstood the earlier part of the discussion as pertains to the image depicted in the decoration rather than the entire weapon.

Well noted on the animal depicted, and it makes sense that there would be a deity type orientation or sacred significance in order to be featured in the motif. There has always been a bit of confusion it seems about the makara and yali as mythical creatures in the Indian pantheon, when and where they were used, and exactly what kind of creatures they were. I believe that they are in effect a combination of forms including crocodile etc.

I had not thought of the pangolin as sacred in a theological sense despite its hide and scales being important in making armor.

Interested Party · 16th June 2022, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted on the animal depicted, and it makes sense that there would be a deity type orientation or sacred significance in order to be featured in the motif. There has always been a bit of confusion it seems about the makara and yali as mythical creatures in the Indian pantheon, when and where they were used, and exactly what kind of creatures they were. I believe that they are in effect a combination of forms including crocodile etc.

I had not thought of the pangolin as sacred in a theological sense despite its hide and scales being important in making armor.

Jim this thread talks about Indonesian pangolin beliefs culminating at post #12.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=pangolin
Whether this animal is a makara, a pangolin, or a crocodile is debatable and maybe it was left ambiguous by the artist.

ariel · 15th June 2022, 02:47 PM

Comp acts again:-(

ariel · 15th June 2022, 02:55 PM

The form and the proportions of that gizmo are those of a garden variety ankus. Nothing else.
Any discussions of a pangolin , whether it was or is a sacred animal in India miss the point. Nobody rides a pangolin.
Similarly, the question whether it is big enough to inflict some pain to an elephant is mistaken: trained elephant responds to the slightest cues from the mahout and pain is carefully avoided, otherwise it will only provoke the creature. In Thailand we had elephant ride near Chiang Mai, I spoke with the mahout and he showed me how he guided the creature with very slight touches. The spear at the end is for killing the elephant if it goes berserk for some reason: a stab just below ( or more precisely, caudally) the skull transsects the spinal cord and causes immediate paralysis. My mahout knew it theoretically, but he never heard of such occurences.

The size of this ankus in question may ( not will !) provide some ideas about the origin. African elephant is the biggest , at ~10 feet tall at the shoulders, Asian ( Indian), ~9 feet tall, Borneo ~8 feet , and the smallest Sumatran one between 7-8 feet tall. There used to be pygmy elephants on smaller islans ( Malta, Crete etc.) and the most recent one on Flores island (<6 feet, and Flores humans <5 feet tall) but they are all extinct. This is a very well known to any educated biologist phenomenon of “island dwarfism” due to restricted habitat and limited food resources.

One can scour the internet and check sizes of ankuses in India and compare them with the current one : if the latter is obviously smaller , one can have a point for its Indonesian origin. I am not very optimistic about this approach: the size of the ankus likely depends more on the size of the mahout:-), but this ankus is so simple and village-made, that there are no ethnic cues as to its origin.
Just an ankus, recent or contemporary

drac2k · 15th June 2022, 08:21 PM

Just for my own edification what do consider recent vintage;5 years, 50 years,100 years old? Also, how did you determine that it is contemporary; have you seen other similar examples around?
The wear, repairs, and pitting would indicate some age to me. The workmanship as well; an example is that the legs are pinned on and not simply brazed, which would have been much easier.
Is it a stunning work of art, no, however it was probably produced by a small village blacksmith, who certainly had a degree of skill.
As an afterthought, it is 18" tall & 5 " at its widest.

ariel · 15th June 2022, 11:45 PM

We all want our thingies to be really old and at the same time in a good shape.:-)
I do not know and, AFAIK, nobody can guess the age of this ankus.
They were used 500 years ago and continue to be used as we speak..
They are not involved in heavy jobs, just casual irritation of elephant’s hide, so they can stay in an almost pristine shape almost indefinitely. They are almost indestructible. In a hot and humid surrounding they may just get patinated.
That’s my limit of guessing.

15th June 2022, 02:47 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	. Comp acts again:-( Last edited by ariel; 15th June 2022 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Double

15th June 2022, 02:55 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	. The form and the proportions of that gizmo are those of a garden variety ankus. Nothing else. Any discussions of a pangolin , whether it was or is a sacred animal in India miss the point. Nobody rides a pangolin. Similarly, the question whether it is big enough to inflict some pain to an elephant is mistaken: trained elephant responds to the slightest cues from the mahout and pain is carefully avoided, otherwise it will only provoke the creature. In Thailand we had elephant ride near Chiang Mai, I spoke with the mahout and he showed me how he guided the creature with very slight touches. The spear at the end is for killing the elephant if it goes berserk for some reason: a stab just below ( or more precisely, caudally) the skull transsects the spinal cord and causes immediate paralysis. My mahout knew it theoretically, but he never heard of such occurences. The size of this ankus in question may ( not will !) provide some ideas about the origin. African elephant is the biggest , at ~10 feet tall at the shoulders, Asian ( Indian), ~9 feet tall, Borneo ~8 feet , and the smallest Sumatran one between 7-8 feet tall. There used to be pygmy elephants on smaller islans ( Malta, Crete etc.) and the most recent one on Flores island (<6 feet, and Flores humans <5 feet tall) but they are all extinct. This is a very well known to any educated biologist phenomenon of “island dwarfism” due to restricted habitat and limited food resources. One can scour the internet and check sizes of ankuses in India and compare them with the current one : if the latter is obviously smaller , one can have a point for its Indonesian origin. I am not very optimistic about this approach: the size of the ankus likely depends more on the size of the mahout:-), but this ankus is so simple and village-made, that there are no ethnic cues as to its origin. Just an ankus, recent or contemporary

15th June 2022, 08:21 PM	#9
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Just for my own edification what do consider recent vintage;5 years, 50 years,100 years old? Also, how did you determine that it is contemporary; have you seen other similar examples around? The wear, repairs, and pitting would indicate some age to me. The workmanship as well; an example is that the legs are pinned on and not simply brazed, which would have been much easier. Is it a stunning work of art, no, however it was probably produced by a small village blacksmith, who certainly had a degree of skill. As an afterthought, it is 18" tall & 5 " at its widest.

15th June 2022, 11:45 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We all want our thingies to be really old and at the same time in a good shape.:-) I do not know and, AFAIK, nobody can guess the age of this ankus. They were used 500 years ago and continue to be used as we speak.. They are not involved in heavy jobs, just casual irritation of elephant’s hide, so they can stay in an almost pristine shape almost indefinitely. They are almost indestructible. In a hot and humid surrounding they may just get patinated. That’s my limit of guessing.