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#1 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Conversely, Here is a Chinese sword with 'parrot head' style hilt in jade,;late 18th c. The Qianlong emperor (1735-1796) had an affinity for 'foreign' styling etc. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th June 2022 at 07:09 AM. |
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#2 |
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There was no direct influence of Chinese culture to Indian one in the 16th century, only indirectly through Iran and Central Asia. If something of Chinese appeared in the Deccan, it first had to appeared in Iran.
In the 18th century, jade hilts were sent from India to China as court gifts. In China also tried to copy them, but such items were very different from the Indian originals. |
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#3 |
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The original silver decorations and the hilt itself are quite old and it was made by the hand of an induist master, not a muslim one. Decorations and inscriptions in gold are applied to the finished handle, and in a good way an examination is needed, whether the style of the inscription corresponds to the 16th century. And the subject as a whole needs provenance.
In any case, inlay-work would be much more appropriate, than false damascening. |
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#4 | |
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Also well noted on the 'court gifts' aspect, which I had not thought of. It would seem many variant sword types with 'hybrid' features reflecting other culturally oriented weapons in the diplomatic gift genre account for many of these anomalies. This makes them extremely interesting of course, and understandably desirable for serious collectors. |
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#5 |
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#6 |
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That's strange...
Are we to believe that Chinese influences jumped over India (despite having direct border and multiple maritime exploits) to Iran and only then,- from Iran, and only in the XVI century,- reached India? First 4 voyages of Zheng He ( a born Muslim from Yunnan prominent family) in the beginning of XV century involved visits of his enormous trade and gifts fleet to India. Last edited by ariel; 14th June 2022 at 03:08 PM. |
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#7 |
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1. Active bilateral contacts in the 18th century did not lead to the appearance of Chinese weapons in India or imitation of them , but very doubtful sporadic contacts in the 15-16th century did it?
![]() What other Chinese artifacts at that time did not just end up in India, but influenced traditional culture and were borrowed as phenomenon? 2. The humanitarian visits of the fleet in the 15th century could not yet lead to a change in the cultural or any other landscape. The Chinese Buddhist monks who traveled through India in the 5th-7th centuries would not be a much worse example. 3. Comparison of the guard on an Indian saber with the guard on a straight Chinese sword, the shape and decor of which have completely different semantic connotations besides the fact that Chinese sabers had completely different guards? Seriously? ![]() It just seems from a postmodernist point of view that someone can sail somewhere and sell something there and everything will change at once. It is impossible to apply such an approach to the historical past and especially to traditional societies. |
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#8 |
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Active Chinese trade in Kollam ( Malabar Coast) was mentioned by Ibn Battuta in XIV century.
Most likely, it started well before that, if it was “active” then:-) “Postmodernist” is a fancy word beloved by some contemporary literature critics and defined as “ an intellectual stance or mode of discourse defined by an attitude of skepticism toward what it considers as the grand narratives of modernism, an opposition to epistemic certainty and the stability of meaning, and a doubtful perspective towards the usefulness of ideology in changing social systems.” ( see Wikipedia), but what on Earth does it have in common with our topic of discussion? Chinese traded with India well before XVI century, and any trade results in the appearance of novel things and modifications of the old ones. Had it not been for McDonald’s, you would not have mile long queues to “Vkusno i tochka” in Moscow:-) Last edited by ariel; 14th June 2022 at 06:08 PM. |
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#9 | |
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Cross-cultural influence took place in other ways. This was especially true in the 14-16 centuries. |
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#10 | |
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She discusses the plausibility of the claim that Zheng He’s flotilla contained 450 feet long trade ships. Everything is based on old documents and technical speculations. Obviously, maritime archeology would have been decisive, but there is no mention of ever finding actual ZH’s vessels. Where did you get your information from? Is it possible that maritime archeologists found much later ships? How many of them were found, if any? ZH’s flotilla was composed of 317 ships. What is the minimal number of ships to be examined to be certain that the entire armada did not carry weapons as gifts? |
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#11 |
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Double
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#12 |
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Do I understand correctly that reliable evidence of the import of weapons from China to India will appear only when maritime archaeologists find Chinese ships with these weapons in their holds? Otherwise, all this can be attributed to myths and legends?
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#13 |
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As a result of the war of 1791-92, Nepal became a vassal of China and was obliged to pay an annual tribute. Trophies captured in Nepal form an important part of the Qianlong Emperor's collection. It also includes Indian-made items.
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