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17th May 2022, 07:05 AM | #1 |
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Here you go! Let me know if you uncover any interesting similarities with other Okir.
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19th May 2022, 01:15 AM | #2 |
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Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable. |
19th May 2022, 01:38 AM | #3 |
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19th May 2022, 02:23 AM | #4 |
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I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France. |
19th May 2022, 11:24 AM | #5 |
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A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785 |
19th May 2022, 12:25 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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25th May 2022, 01:59 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
Thank you so much for the light pointed in another direction!! |
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5th March 2023, 12:19 AM | #8 |
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P. Holstein,Contribution à l'Etude des Armes Orientales, Paris 1931
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23rd March 2023, 01:18 PM | #9 |
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I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.
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24th March 2023, 02:10 AM | #10 |
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Here’s an odd one.
Small in size. Brass / copper alloy blade. Carving on the hilt could be a Tree of Life motif. |
24th March 2023, 03:40 PM | #11 |
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Hello Albert,
You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread. Here's another example with heavily stylized pommel (from Lonna's & Dave's collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17894). Regards, Kai |
24th March 2023, 04:07 PM | #12 |
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Here's an example with a really diminutive pommel.
Regards, Kai |
24th March 2023, 05:12 PM | #13 |
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24th March 2023, 04:18 PM | #14 | |
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Hello Gavin,
Quote:
However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style. Regards, Kai |
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24th March 2023, 11:11 PM | #15 | |
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I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion. Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion. Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations). In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels. A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 25th March 2023 at 01:49 AM. |
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24th March 2023, 11:51 PM | #16 |
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Hi Gavin,
This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented. The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak. An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread. |
25th March 2023, 12:59 AM | #17 | ||
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Hello Gavin,
Quote:
Quote:
Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning). I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend... Regards, Kai |
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4th March 2023, 02:08 AM | #18 |
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The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps
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4th March 2023, 10:16 PM | #19 |
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Well the detailed pics from your new piece will definitely expand the discussion!! My thoughts on these pieces are far from definitive but I still feel the distinct subset of this form is significant.
Last edited by SanibelSwassa; 4th March 2023 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Add pics |
4th September 2023, 05:29 PM | #20 |
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Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.
Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these? |
5th September 2023, 06:49 AM | #21 |
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A previous thread
A previous thread relating to one of the first in this thread presented here for discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4443 Seems a long time member previously owned it. I'm definitely on board with Michael's Sabah assessment. These continue to be discussed offline where more ideas and data are passed about. I see them thus far as Labuan influenced too when looking at the top motif on the crown, it is a reoccuring theme from the region, just as that design is also seen in Sabah weaving too. Some aspects of the motifs are seen in old Bugis drawings and carving which make sense given the large sea faring nation and the Maritime Silk Road running through Indonesia and SEA, but overall the style is unique. Brunei being the longest power base behind the regions and the English disruptions in the 19th century, it makes sense when seeing these on both sides of the fence so to speak, as I believe there are a couple that saw service under the British navy, and others, as noted at the start of this thread as being taken from Sulu pirates on the Sabah coast lines by Naval staff on various vessels |
12th September 2023, 05:33 PM | #22 |
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Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?
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13th September 2023, 08:36 AM | #23 |
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13th September 2023, 09:59 AM | #24 |
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Thanks Gents.
I can appreciate this given space between 4 fingers, and be swayed to consider this but when you consider examples such as this; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=13 There is no practical application like grip enhancement? And this one in Kino's collection, does the odd spacing really provide that much of a better grip when the hooked pommel provides just as much? Idle thoughts thrown out for discussion..... |
17th September 2023, 06:36 AM | #25 |
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Solved?
So, a long long road digging, looking, reading, speaking with others and today this presents whilst researching a Kampilan.... there mostly goes my Sulu origin thoughts about the hulu....
First, another old thread of Alberts unique Chevron Kris dressed in the same manner as the metal hilted one he has. LUCKY and diligent Chap! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang Albert's other stunner http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661 Battara's Datu Piang Kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang One Gustav discussed a while ago. One Chris had I believe. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785 The golden one I was lucky enough to obtain. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=68 A photo of Datu Piang, from the University of WI I believe. A couple of zoom details clearly showing his entourage both wearing and bearing Kris with this hilt type. SO, with consideration to the Holstein Sulu example, and others of the similar type, found in other materials, provenanced to the Sulu and Sulu coastal areas of Borneo... what's the relationship regionally and historically. I understand the Maguindanao people are spread far and wide. It is the common thread of timeline of this design influence that intrigues me. PS, THAT whalebone Kampilan and the stunning scabbard with carry handle may need it's own thread! Simply stunning.... Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 17th September 2023 at 07:21 AM. |
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garuda kris |
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