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7th May 2022, 03:42 PM | #1 | |
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I'm not well-versed in Mindanao and Sulu art, but I can see traces of Moro patterns in our odd hilts. Also, to note- I read that jawa demam has a certain ambiguity when it comes to what's depicted on the pommel- sometimes it's indeed viewed of as garuda; but it can also be viewed as a crouched man carrying a snake. This is interestingly parallel to the prevailing symbols in Mindanao and Sulu- Mindanao, for its sarimanok, and Sulu, for its naga. |
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9th May 2022, 07:49 PM | #2 | |
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9th May 2022, 09:38 PM | #3 |
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I agree with David on all points. And especially regarding the term "bird" hilt, I don't see a bird in the hilts which get described as bird hilt.
Kerner distinguished two basis positions by figural hilts, the squatting figure with crossed arms and the squatting figure with the left arm resting on the knee and the right arm around the knee. See the picture for the first one from his booklet "Keris-Griffe Aus Museen und Privatsammlungen", page 42. And this is also the figure in question, at least I see here a similar figure Kerner shows in the middle row. |
10th May 2022, 12:08 AM | #4 |
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Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).
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10th May 2022, 12:24 AM | #5 | |
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Short answer: no, at least I never have seen one. Regards, Detlef |
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10th May 2022, 05:38 AM | #6 |
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Certainly not to the extent that your example extends, but many hilts have ferrule like metal attachments like a selut as this Sumatran Putri Malu hilt does.
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10th May 2022, 11:25 AM | #7 |
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Thanks again to the both of you!
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10th May 2022, 12:41 PM | #8 |
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I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!
So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility. In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering to origin of these more rare kris. So in these pictures…(all from my collection 😉 what is the symbolism for the highlighted area?? |
10th May 2022, 05:31 PM | #9 | |
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok |
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10th May 2022, 06:06 PM | #10 | |
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11th May 2022, 04:50 PM | #11 | |
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Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird. |
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12th May 2022, 01:11 AM | #12 | |
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What would a bird defend or attack with, the beak, I think. Just a thought. |
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12th May 2022, 01:38 AM | #13 |
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Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.
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5th March 2023, 12:43 AM | #14 | |
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The other image, another from online that to my eyes fits within the subgroup too. Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 5th March 2023 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Extra image |
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5th March 2023, 12:58 AM | #15 | |
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My perception of the icon
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I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU? But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too.... Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 5th March 2023 at 03:48 AM. Reason: Image upload |
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5th March 2023, 03:30 AM | #16 |
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Off on a tangent, a big swing off tangent
Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.
I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations. I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period... Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing? I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can? From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not |
10th May 2022, 12:43 PM | #17 |
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I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!
So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility. In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering the origin of these more rare kris. So in these pictures…(all from my collection) what is the symbolism for the highlighted?? Last edited by SanibelSwassa; 10th May 2022 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Duplicate |
10th May 2022, 12:51 PM | #18 |
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Now we can look for the same symbolism in the Garuda kris.
I have highlighted the area for observation. To make the correlation to the amorphous bird form you would also need to look to orientation an find a beak and a crest. |
10th May 2022, 02:39 PM | #19 |
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We do not see these common symbols in the forms of the Java Demam nor do we find the Shivering Javanese man with the any of the various accompanying forms shown the the pictures already shared in the form of the Garuda kris shown above. While the pistol grip form of the hilt design shares in the indo style the symbolisms do not appear to follow the known elements of the Java Demam origin story associated with those blades.
Further we have other dissimilar elements in the Garuda kris. These elements include the motifs on what I will label the front and back faces of the hilt which should be examined. As I have already shown other examples here is another compare and contrast. |
10th May 2022, 04:44 PM | #20 | |
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By chance, I was able to borrow some kris (probably preWW2-postWW2 era thereabouts) that incorporated the hilt in question- but one of them clearly depicted what it was all about |
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garuda kris |
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