Schiavona - The one that got away

[ulfberth]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing" I like this one very much and to me its a 17th c one. Most schiavona's on the market are 18thc not bad, but early ones like this one are more rare and especialy the ones with the wider branches like this one has.
In my 45 years of collecting I only once had one like it and would be prepared to go deep in my purse to buy that one back.
I prefer the early one above the more fancy and the later model are usualy more fancy, the simpler the older.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing"

Very true. To me swords should at least look like they were made with combat in mind. I often find that the ones I like the most are the ones with modest decorations rather than the ones that are extremely elaborate (although there are always exceptions).

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

As a relatively new collector I've yet to handle a sword with a thumb ring, but I'm currently saving up for a Walloon sword (of the Amsterdam city guard type, if I can find one I can afford). The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

* Grazie for the correction Philip.

[toaster5sqn]

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

[werecow]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

D'oh! I've always had trouble telling my left from my right. }|:oP

Originally Posted by Philip

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Now that you guys mention it I've also seen them on some Sinclair hilts / dussacks, e.g.:



I guess they are less anomalous than I thought.

[ariel]

There are no ”buts” about this schiavona: it is perfect. Nothing fancy about it, just a pure muscular example of an old fighting sword in practically perfect shape. There are some of us on the Forum who are almost as old as this schiavona, and we all are in a worse shape and as to “fighting”, let’s not touch the subject…

I am sorry you missed it, but you are young and will still meet the schiavona of your dreams.

And thanks for the new topic: all of us have bags of similar sorrows:-((

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

.

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Attached here is a dorsal view of a schiavona hilt, just below the axis of the grip you can see the thumb ring incorporated into the basket. These, like Polish sabers, are not unduly heavy swords but having the right thumb hooked on the ring contributes a lot to control and the ability to secure the weapon during use, without resorting to a wrist-lanyard.

[Philip]

Here are additional pics of the same schiavona. Note that the diagonal border of the basket, on the obverse side, is composed of two parallel bars, with "ladder rungs" in between them. This is the mark of a Type 2 hilt. The later and more ornate variants, Types 2a and 2b, have two and three rows of these rungs or steps, respectively, forming the outer border of the basket.

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

This was new to me. Great to learn something new! Thanks for posting. Beautiful scabbard. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?

Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?

I am trying to research that point myself. Venice, essentially a city-state, was primarily a maritime power, defending its far flung network of island and coastal trading centers. But at various times the Republic also controlled land areas in Lombardy, northeast Italia, coastal Croatia, and parts of mainland Greece. The situation is further complicated by the fact that the Republic's heyday coincided with the high period of mercenary warfare in Europe, and since its limited local landholdings made a supply of conscripts problematic, fighting men were recruited in significant numbers from elsewhere, especially Dalmatians and Stradioti from the Adriatic regions.

Venice's preoccupation with maritime affairs is exemplified by the annual ceremony during which the Doge and his court cruised on the massive gilded barge "Bucintoro" into open waters and threw a gold ring to the waves, to renew the Republic's vows of marriage to the sea. And for a long time, its main rival in Italy was Genoa, its seafaring counterpart on the other side of the peninsula.

I would tend to think that from a tactical perspective, a shorter weapon such as the storta , a broad-bladed cutlass or falchion, might be handier aboard the cramped decks of a galley.

[Victrix]

As schiavona means Slav then presumably these swords were predominantly from the Slavs living around the Adriatic in Venice, Dalmatia, and Montenegro. There were some Slav stradioti but I understand most were Greek and Albanian. At some times Venice controlled much of Dalmatia and also employed Dalmatian mercenaries. It seems schiavonas were typically Dalmatian (and Istrian?) and not used much in the hinterlands of Bosnia and Croatia/Hungary. If not donned and used on ships, the schiavonas must have been used at least to defend the many walled cities on the coast like Dubrovnik (Ragusa), Split (Spalato), Zadar (Zara), etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?

I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures )


.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures )


.

Good point, Nando. Yes, even the Italian arms literature refers to "testa di gatto". Some see a stylized pussycat profile, others envision the Lion of St Mark. There is a certain zoological consistency, at least.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures ).

Yes good point. The winged lion was the symbol of St.Mark and also the symbol of Venice who had him as a patron saint. Incidentally the coat of arms of Dalmatia also has three crowned lions.