Vietnamese, Burmese, Thai?

[DavidFriedman]

Hi friends,
I’m still learning about the South East Asian twists on weaponry. Was just wondering if anyone could identify these large two handed sabers, as Vietnamese, Thai, Burmese, Cambodian?

28 inch blades, 40 inch total lengths.

Because of the design on the blade, I was leaning towards Vietnamese. But since there’s two of them, it reminds me of the Thai or Cambodian double sabers. (Krabi Krabong etc?)

Many thanks in advance.

[BBJW]

Looks like a Thai Dha to me.- bbjw

[Ren Ren]

My guess is that these items come from Northwest Vietnam.

[DavidFriedman]

These are 40 inches. Do you think that they would be used in a pair, as are Thai Dha?

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

My guess is that these items come from Northwest Vietnam.

[DavidFriedman]

Thanks

QUOTE=BBJW;270669]Looks like a Thai Dha to me.- bbjw[/QUOTE]

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

These are 40 inches. Do you think that they would be used in a pair, as are Thai Dha?

I like your question, but I don't have an answer yet. In the North of Vietnam, along the border with China, paired objects are widespread. But I am not sure that the same customs exist in the Northwest of Vietnam, on the border with Laos. This needs to be checked.
I just started to discover this region of Vietnam. This is an amazing place with a huge natural and ethnic diversity. I heard from biologists that in this region there are species of animals and plants typical of the West - for India and Indo-China, for the East - for China and East Asia, and for the North - for Tibet, Mongolia and even Siberia. Also, several dozen small peoples live there, speaking the languages ​​​​of four or even five large language groups. On our planet, such diversity is probably found only in the Caucasus. But it is still a little explored and hard to reach place, and many discoveries will be made there.

[DavidFriedman]

Sounds like an interesting area. I will try and look it up. Thanks

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I like your question, but I don't have an answer yet. In the North of Vietnam, along the border with China, paired objects are widespread. But I am not sure that the same customs exist in the Northwest of Vietnam, on the border with Laos. This needs to be checked.
I just started to discover this region of Vietnam. This is an amazing place with a huge natural and ethnic diversity. I heard from biologists that in this region there are species of animals and plants typical of the West - for India and Indo-China, for the East - for China and East Asia, and for the North - for Tibet, Mongolia and even Siberia. Also, several dozen small peoples live there, speaking the languages ​​​​of four or even five large language groups. On our planet, such diversity is probably found only in the Caucasus. But it is still a little explored and hard to reach place, and many discoveries will be made there.

[kronckew]

The Thai use of double swords in Krabbi Krabong is a display thing. Real soldiers being sensible, used a single sword and a shield, And wore helmets. They had to contend with archers, not just admiring crowds.

[DavidFriedman]

Excellent point. Perhaps the double saber/sword use could also spill over into non military duels.

I’m more familiar with the Chinese’s paired knives/sabers, and haven’t really seen much of the Thai styles. But yes, showmanship and street performances are a much different animal than battle skills. Good point. Thank you.

Originally Posted by kronckew

The Thai use of double swords in Krabbi Krabong is a display thing. Real soldiers being sensible, used a single sword and a shield, And wore helmets. They had to contend with archers, not just admiring crowds.

[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The Thai use of double swords in Krabbi Krabong is a display thing. Real soldiers being sensible, used a single sword and a shield, And wore helmets. They had to contend with archers, not just admiring crowds.

Same for a lot of "Martial Arts" eye catching displays to attract the punters, and something very different when faced with a real threat!

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David R

Same for a lot of "Martial Arts" eye catching displays to attract the punters, and something very different when faced with a real threat!

Another common fallacy is that they are 'Two-handed swords'. They are not.
The extra-long grips are to counterbalance the blade. There are a few instances when the addition of the off-hand on the pommel end can be used to add power to a strike, usually when the opponent is already down and the need to counter is less important than forcefully finishing the argument. There are a few that are SO long that they must be used two handed, more like a short pole-arm, but that is a bit unusual.

[Ren Ren]

First and fourth swords from Son La province in Northwestern Vietnam. My friend took this photo with his phone at the Quai Branly Museum in Paris.

[kronckew]

Re: swords in post #1 - Another tit-bit:

Look at the amount of rings on the hilts, shape of the pommels, etc. 2 single 19thc Tonkin sabres, not made as a pair. (lower one looks to be missing its flat guard disc & is fullered & blade is decorated).

They are also too long at 1 metre (40in.) for two handed Thai style.

[Ian]

Ren Ren,

Thanks for posting this interesting picture. The hilt on the left-most example is unusual and may well be local to the province you mention, or possibly Cambodian. The second and third are probably Thai, the second being northern Thai/Shan in style and the third seems to be Thai from the Rattanakosin period (early-mid 19th C perhaps). The fourth is Lao in style, and may be quite old.

Like many attributions in museums, classification is often by the site of collection rather than the site/culture of manufacture.

[Rick]

Note the same decoration seen on one of your blades, David; could this be called a Guom even in this simple form?

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Ian

Ren Ren,
Like many attributions in museums, classification is often by the site of collection rather than the site/culture of manufacture.

You are absolutely right - this is a common problem for all museums. And more often old museums with more than a century of history suffer from it. Probably, genetic mutations tend to accumulate

[DavidFriedman]

Good observation on the ring count difference on the two swords.

I will look up Tonkin sabres, as it’s a new area for me.

When the swords arrive, I will take closer pics.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by kronckew

Re: swords in post #1 - Another tit-bit:

Look at the amount of rings on the hilts, shape of the pommels, etc. 2 single 19thc Tonkin sabres, not made as a pair. (lower one looks to be missing its flat guard disc & is fullered & blade is decorated).

They are also too long at 1 metre (40in.) for two handed Thai style.

[DavidFriedman]

Nice saber. I don’t know much about these kind yet.

Originally Posted by Rick

Note the same decoration seen on one of your blades, David; could this be called a Guom even in this simple form?