Resin-based Warangka & Hilt

David · 15th March 2022, 05:34 PM

Just an opinion, but i do not consider resin hilts and sheaths suitable for anything beyond a souvenir keris-like-object.

Bob A · 15th March 2022, 06:04 PM

The horror, the horror!

Jean · 15th March 2022, 07:55 PM

Look at this one which has some age (1980's), it is not my favorite of course but not so bad. I also have one hilt made of a similar materials, I did not realize it when purchasing these 2 pieces.

David · 15th March 2022, 08:10 PM

Sure, it can occasionally look like close to the real thing (usually mimicking ivory), and it is far too often presented as the real thing, which is criminal IMHO. But i see no reason that it is necessary as an alternative. For new dress i would rather have bone or antler for an ivory substitute than molded resin. I don't see it as a wood substitute either and though some woods have indeed become rare i doubt that resin can serve as a reasonable look-alike for those materials.

shadejoy · 15th March 2022, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Just an opinion, but i do not consider resin hilts and sheaths suitable for anything beyond a souvenir keris-like-object.

The idea I have is to use the resin as the core while the whole outer warangka is enveloped in full silver. I have seen full silver warangka, more often in Bugis Keris. Hoping to prolong the life of warangka with less maintenance should the wilah is oiled frequently.

In the traditional Warangka, and to quote Alan "..storing an oiled blade in a wooden scabbard is a sure and certain way to stain the wood and eventually damage that wood and the value of the scabbard, the cellulose material."

And to add, some say that it might develop mold (jamuran) on the wilah.

So I was thinking that maybe resin would be a good alternative for the core part that is in contact with the steel blade, am curious to learn the interactions and what effects it may cause between resin, oil and steel blade in the long run.

Marcokeris · 15th March 2022, 10:36 PM

I happened to find in Yogya (in the big market) handles made of resin. In their form they were also quite good and mimicked those made of bone, horn... Their price was very low. Obviously they have been explained to me that they are handles for Indonesian people who cannot afford a higher expense for other types of handles.

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2022, 01:27 AM

I feel that resin might be acceptable if the purpose was purely to provide a storage facility for the keris, equally, resin hilts & scabbards might be acceptable in a non-traditional setting, or a very low economic level setting, as dress used for a keris in its function as an item of formal dress.

For example I have seen both a blade made of cardboard & a blade made of a tin can used as items of formal dress in a poor village setting in Central Jawa.

However, no traditional Javanese person could ever accept resin as an acceptable substitute for the traditional materials.

I would never even consider applying the insult of resin dress to any keris.

But as long as nobody else ever saw it, as long as it was kept in a singep, in a locked drawer, in a locked cabinet, in a locked room, I guess it might provide a suitable storage facility.

shadejoy · 16th March 2022, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that resin might be acceptable if the purpose was purely to provide a storage facility for the keris, equally, resin hilts & scabbards might be acceptable in a non-traditional setting, or a very low economic level setting, as dress used for a keris in its function as an item of formal dress.

For example I have seen both a blade made of cardboard & a blade made of a tin can used as items of formal dress in a poor village setting in Central Jawa.

However, no traditional Javanese person could ever accept resin as an acceptable substitute for the traditional materials.

I would never even consider applying the insult of resin dress to any keris.

But as long as nobody else ever saw it, as long as it was kept in a singep, in a locked drawer, in a locked cabinet, in a locked room, I guess it might provide a suitable storage facility.

What I have in mind is not to create entire warangka from resin. Only the core. The attached picture might clarify my intention. The warangka is from gold with natural stones/gems encrusted. This warangka and all other golden warangkas outthere including silver warangka, I believe, are still commonly using wood as the core. So the wooden core (cellulose material) would need to be replaced eventually from recurring oil stain. I thought ..resin might be the answer to that. Keep the gold and silver material as the outer part but use resin as the core for better, longer life of warangka and the blade.

I feel like I made everybody idea that I was going to make cheap warangka. Definitely not. Just thinking about getting a more luxurious new dress. Essentially the project's aim is to improve esthetic (full gold or silver warangka) with better functionality (using core material that is better withstand oil staining and degradation).

shadejoy · 16th March 2022, 03:01 AM

Full Silver warangka. Note the wood as its core.

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2022, 04:01 AM

The wood used in the core of a metal covered wrongko is never expensive wood, moreover, it is never seen, it does not matter in even the smallest degree if the oil penetrates the wood. In fact, it is perhaps desirable that the oil does get into the wood, as it will form a barrier between the cellulose of the wood and the ferric material of the blade.

Where oil stains do matter is where an expensive, sometimes irreplaceable timber has been used in an expensive, irreplaceable wrongko. If you cannot see the wood, and that wood is low grade wood in any case, it doesn't matter.

What does matter always is preservation of the blade.

In traditional thought, the dress, no matter how luxurious & expensive has no real cultural value. Throughout the existence of a keris, dress is changed frequently and for many reasons, so it is really only people who value money and people who value the art of the dress who care about the oil stains.

In traditional Javanese thought the replacement of a scabbard is seen as something desirable, in a way, something like replacing an old wife with a younger woman, again, something that is not at all uncommon in Javanese society.

Collectors try to avoid staining a wrongko, it detracts from overall appearance, & from value. The actual users of keris are usually a bit less particular.

But apart from all that there are the perceived feelings of the keris itself to consider. It is widely believed that the material used for a wrongko should ideally be a material that the keris itself will feel comfortable being next to.

Again we can draw a comparison with women:- just because we see something as beautiful that does not necessarily mean that the keris will perceive it as beautiful. One of the most highly favoured woods for a keris is scented sandalwood, this is a very plain wood unless it has some sort special grain, like simba (feather crotch), so giving a keris a scented sandalwood wrongko is like paying respect to it.

On the other hand, we might find ivory to be a very attractive material for a wrongko, but ivory is hard, unyielding, cold. The ivory wrongko is a statement of our own prestige, but we need to ask if the feelings of the keris are in accord with our own feelings, or if in fact we might be acting in a slightly disrespectful way.

Writing the above my thoughts were circling around things I was taught by Javanese teachers, but it perhaps does not hold true that a similar system of values would apply in Bali, or anywhere else outside of certain areas of Jawa.

I guess, in the final analysis it all comes down to one's own personal system of values.

shadejoy · 16th March 2022, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, it is perhaps desirable that the oil does get into the wood, as it will form a barrier between the cellulose of the wood and the ferric material of the blade.

I'm a bit confused. In one of your posts you said.. "It goes without saying that I do not store my keris against cellulose material. Wood is a cellulose material. Nobody who has any respect at all for a steel blade should store that blade in such a way that it is in contact with cellulose material. Apart from which, storing an oiled blade in a wooden scabbard is a sure and certain way to stain the wood and eventually damage that wood and the value of the scabbard."

So, oiled blade in the scabbard is actually preferable, as it'll form a barrier and perhaps replacing and replenishing the wood's natural oils to add protection?

I think in traditional thought, the dress does have real cultural value. Perhaps Kesultanan Jawa (Yogyakarta & Surakarta) is a perfect example of it; how each function/venue dictates which Keris dress to use: Sandang Walikat, Ladrang or Gayaman. The color scheme of the wrongko also identifies one's status in social structure.

I'm almost positive that you've covered these topics in the past. I know I've seen them.

Sometimes people bring the Keris to complete the ensemble for royal ceremonies. Then the Keris is decorated with precious stones and diamonds. Even the sheath is made of beautifully textured wood or metal or ivory as you mentioned, carved in such a beautiful way, plated with glittering gold as the pride of the wearer.

With that said, warangka/wrongko in my opinion is an important part of a Keris. Wrongko is the first thing that people see. It may reveal one’s position in the socio-economic structure of society. In a way, it's a form of communication through symbolism.

I can relate to your parable about having multiple women

Kinatah is added on to the wilah or gonjo as form of appreciation to the Keris for fulfilling its 'duty'. I think such practice is not new. So I wouldn't be surprised if people have been doing the same with wrongko ..other than perhaps because it was worn out and due for replacement.

Although I have heard that certain woods have their own 'tuah' but I cannot tell if one might or might not be compatible with certain Keris. I don't have any reference about that specific subject so I can't comment on the perceived feelings of the Keris in regards to the dress and its material. Plus, I'm not at all spiritual. Would love to figure out how to 'tayuh' though. I do fully agree that esoteric, as subjective as it may be, is an integral part of Keris culture.

At the end of the day it's as you've so eloquently put (as always) ..it all comes down to one's own personal system of values.

15th March 2022, 07:55 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Look at this one which has some age (1980's), it is not my favorite of course but not so bad. I also have one hilt made of a similar materials, I did not realize it when purchasing these 2 pieces. Attached Images

16th March 2022, 03:01 AM	#9
shadejoy Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Massachusetts, US Posts: 67	Full Silver warangka. Note the wood as its core. Attached Images

15th March 2022, 05:34 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Just an opinion, but i do not consider resin hilts and sheaths suitable for anything beyond a souvenir keris-like-object.

15th March 2022, 06:04 PM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	The horror, the horror!

15th March 2022, 08:10 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Sure, it can occasionally look like close to the real thing (usually mimicking ivory), and it is far too often presented as the real thing, which is criminal IMHO. But i see no reason that it is necessary as an alternative. For new dress i would rather have bone or antler for an ivory substitute than molded resin. I don't see it as a wood substitute either and though some woods have indeed become rare i doubt that resin can serve as a reasonable look-alike for those materials.

15th March 2022, 10:36 PM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I happened to find in Yogya (in the big market) handles made of resin. In their form they were also quite good and mimicked those made of bone, horn... Their price was very low. Obviously they have been explained to me that they are handles for Indonesian people who cannot afford a higher expense for other types of handles.

16th March 2022, 01:27 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	I feel that resin might be acceptable if the purpose was purely to provide a storage facility for the keris, equally, resin hilts & scabbards might be acceptable in a non-traditional setting, or a very low economic level setting, as dress used for a keris in its function as an item of formal dress. For example I have seen both a blade made of cardboard & a blade made of a tin can used as items of formal dress in a poor village setting in Central Jawa. However, no traditional Javanese person could ever accept resin as an acceptable substitute for the traditional materials. I would never even consider applying the insult of resin dress to any keris. But as long as nobody else ever saw it, as long as it was kept in a singep, in a locked drawer, in a locked cabinet, in a locked room, I guess it might provide a suitable storage facility.

16th March 2022, 04:01 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,890	The wood used in the core of a metal covered wrongko is never expensive wood, moreover, it is never seen, it does not matter in even the smallest degree if the oil penetrates the wood. In fact, it is perhaps desirable that the oil does get into the wood, as it will form a barrier between the cellulose of the wood and the ferric material of the blade. Where oil stains do matter is where an expensive, sometimes irreplaceable timber has been used in an expensive, irreplaceable wrongko. If you cannot see the wood, and that wood is low grade wood in any case, it doesn't matter. What does matter always is preservation of the blade. In traditional thought, the dress, no matter how luxurious & expensive has no real cultural value. Throughout the existence of a keris, dress is changed frequently and for many reasons, so it is really only people who value money and people who value the art of the dress who care about the oil stains. In traditional Javanese thought the replacement of a scabbard is seen as something desirable, in a way, something like replacing an old wife with a younger woman, again, something that is not at all uncommon in Javanese society. Collectors try to avoid staining a wrongko, it detracts from overall appearance, & from value. The actual users of keris are usually a bit less particular. But apart from all that there are the perceived feelings of the keris itself to consider. It is widely believed that the material used for a wrongko should ideally be a material that the keris itself will feel comfortable being next to. Again we can draw a comparison with women:- just because we see something as beautiful that does not necessarily mean that the keris will perceive it as beautiful. One of the most highly favoured woods for a keris is scented sandalwood, this is a very plain wood unless it has some sort special grain, like simba (feather crotch), so giving a keris a scented sandalwood wrongko is like paying respect to it. On the other hand, we might find ivory to be a very attractive material for a wrongko, but ivory is hard, unyielding, cold. The ivory wrongko is a statement of our own prestige, but we need to ask if the feelings of the keris are in accord with our own feelings, or if in fact we might be acting in a slightly disrespectful way. Writing the above my thoughts were circling around things I was taught by Javanese teachers, but it perhaps does not hold true that a similar system of values would apply in Bali, or anywhere else outside of certain areas of Jawa. I guess, in the final analysis it all comes down to one's own personal system of values.