Identifying a Keris

shadejoy · 30th January 2022, 06:59 PM

Hello,

Would love your expertise in identifying this Keris..

Is this Balinese or Lombok ..or perhaps from somewhere else?
Any estimation on how old this Keris is? I can never tell if a Keris is a genuine sepuh or artificially aged.
Could you recognize the pamor?
The ganja on the greneng side seems to be separated. Is this normal or an indication of mismatched between ganja dan wilah?

Thanks in advance!

milandro · 30th January 2022, 08:00 PM

No doubt some of the more expert forum dwellers will have a different take, but to me seems to be a Balinese kris.

I have been told by many that even very well known expert experts find them difficult to tell apart and that one expert may say one thing while another may say the opposite.

The quality appears to me to go under the better kerisses and perhaps I could venture into saying that this could be a Kulit Semangka pamor.

Several people whom “ wash” krisses with warangan ( I have met 3 until now very well known in the Dutch kris community) told me that having a loose ganja is not unusual and that, in fact, it may indicate that the kris has been washes a number of times therefore, old but that too, as everything else may be faked (although I doubt that it is in this case)

This can be restored.

Sajen · 30th January 2022, 09:31 PM

Would agree, an old Bali or Lombok blade.

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2022, 12:16 AM

It is a Bali style blade, but whether from main island Bali, or from Lombok island colony, it is virtually impossible to know with any certainty.
This doubt persists even when a blade is in the hand. There are some indicators that might make one lean towards either Bali or Lombok, but we cannot ever be certain. With this keris I lean to Lombok, but I would never debate it.

No real opinion on age, but 19th century would be a safe guess.

Pamor is wos wutah (& all related variations of the same words)

The imperfect gonjo fit could have been there since the blade was made, or it might have been knocked out of its original position, the blade does not look old enough for erosion to have caused the gap.

jagabuwana · 31st January 2022, 12:19 AM

Is this a pin? Or am I seeing things?

Interested Party · 31st January 2022, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Is this a pin? Or am I seeing things?

Looks closer to silver solder in that picture. The other pictures don't show the shiny spot.

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2022, 08:19 PM

Reflected light?

shadejoy · 31st January 2022, 09:49 PM

Thank you all very much for your insights!

@milandro & @A. G. Maisey - Thank you for your input! The pamor looks like spots of smokes going up. It may be just me, but the pattern looks sparse compared to typical Kulit Semangka or Wos Wutah outthere.

@jagabuwana - Great eye! I didn't realize it. My suspicion was mostly on gap of the ganja. It looks like a spot weld and only on one side ..odd.

Thank you again for the discussion!

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2022, 10:13 PM

The pamor is typical Bali, it is sparse, Balinese blades that use these random patterns are seldom as dense as Jawa blades.

A spot weld would be extremely unusual, are you able to do a good close up?

I've run this image through PS but I cannot get a good enough image to determine anything.

shadejoy · 1st February 2022, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The pamor is typical Bali, it is sparse, Balinese blades that use these random patterns are seldom as dense as Jawa blades.

A spot weld would be extremely unusual, are you able to do a good close up?

I've run this image through PS but I cannot get a good enough image to determine anything.

I always learn something from this forum. I didn't realize the nuances of the same pamor that were from different regions. It is very worth noting.

Thanks again for the discussion, very much appreciated!

David · 1st February 2022, 04:10 PM

Shadejoy, i have noted that you edited your last post, but in your original post you mention that you took these photos from an auction catalog.
I don't know if this is a current auction, but i will point out to you just in case you missed it in the forum rules, that it is absolutely forbidden to post and discuss keris that are currently being auctioned. Please take note. Thanks!

shadejoy · 1st February 2022, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Shadejoy, i have noted that you edited your last post, but in your original post you mention that you took these photos from an auction catalog.
I don't know if this is a current auction, but i will point out to you just in case you missed it in the forum rules, that it is absolutely forbidden to post and discuss keris that are currently being auctioned. Please take note. Thanks!

Yup, exactly! I ended the discussion.

I edited it as soon as I realized. Always a good idea to read Forum Rules or Ethics and Policies to get familiarize with the dos and don'ts.

I own my mistakes, my apologies.

David · 1st February 2022, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

Yup, exactly! I ended the discussion.

I edited it as soon as I realized. Always a good idea to read Forum Rules or Ethics and Policies to get familiarize with the dos and don'ts.

I own my mistakes, my apologies.

No worries...or penalties...this time. LOL!

Glad you realized your mistake on your own.

shadejoy · 1st February 2022, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

No worries...or penalties...this time. LOL!

Glad you realized your mistake on your own.

Benevolent wind wandered my way..

Thank you @David!

David · 5th March 2022, 04:02 PM

Since the seller of this keris has stepped up and identified themselves and this keris is indeed still up for sale will now have to close this thread.
My apologies to the owner/seller of this keris for deleting your post, but by identifying yourself you have shown everyone where it can be purchased. So i had to remove you from the equation. But i will repost the information you brought forward for the sake of understanding the answer to the questions that were raised about the spot by the gonjo. If you have any questions about this deletion or the closing of this thread feel free to PM me. And just a reminder to members, please do not post keris that are currently for sale. Thanks!

The seller wrote:
Hello all, this is a keris of mine. I checked the ganja and the shiny part which looked like a weld was in fact a drop of oil mixed with dirt after I cleaned it, it got stuck when I took it to my photo studio,it is removed now. The blade dates from the 19th century and is original and believed to be Balinese. The hilt is a later addition, which is tight so I am unfortunately not able to show the peksi.

30th January 2022, 06:59 PM	#1
shadejoy Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Massachusetts, US Posts: 67	Identifying a Keris Hello, Would love your expertise in identifying this Keris.. Is this Balinese or Lombok ..or perhaps from somewhere else? Any estimation on how old this Keris is? I can never tell if a Keris is a genuine sepuh or artificially aged. Could you recognize the pamor? The ganja on the greneng side seems to be separated. Is this normal or an indication of mismatched between ganja dan wilah? Thanks in advance! Attached Images

31st January 2022, 12:19 AM	#5
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 281	Is this a pin? Or am I seeing things? Attached Images

31st January 2022, 09:49 PM	#8
shadejoy Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Massachusetts, US Posts: 67	Thank you all very much for your insights! @milandro & @A. G. Maisey - Thank you for your input! The pamor looks like spots of smokes going up. It may be just me, but the pattern looks sparse compared to typical Kulit Semangka or Wos Wutah outthere. @jagabuwana - Great eye! I didn't realize it. My suspicion was mostly on gap of the ganja. It looks like a spot weld and only on one side ..odd. Thank you again for the discussion! Attached Images

30th January 2022, 08:00 PM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 475	No doubt some of the more expert forum dwellers will have a different take, but to me seems to be a Balinese kris. I have been told by many that even very well known expert experts find them difficult to tell apart and that one expert may say one thing while another may say the opposite. The quality appears to me to go under the better kerisses and perhaps I could venture into saying that this could be a Kulit Semangka pamor. Several people whom “ wash” krisses with warangan ( I have met 3 until now very well known in the Dutch kris community) told me that having a loose ganja is not unusual and that, in fact, it may indicate that the kris has been washes a number of times therefore, old but that too, as everything else may be faked (although I doubt that it is in this case) This can be restored.

30th January 2022, 09:31 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Would agree, an old Bali or Lombok blade.

31st January 2022, 12:16 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	It is a Bali style blade, but whether from main island Bali, or from Lombok island colony, it is virtually impossible to know with any certainty. This doubt persists even when a blade is in the hand. There are some indicators that might make one lean towards either Bali or Lombok, but we cannot ever be certain. With this keris I lean to Lombok, but I would never debate it. No real opinion on age, but 19th century would be a safe guess. Pamor is wos wutah (& all related variations of the same words) The imperfect gonjo fit could have been there since the blade was made, or it might have been knocked out of its original position, the blade does not look old enough for erosion to have caused the gap.

31st January 2022, 08:19 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Reflected light?

31st January 2022, 10:13 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The pamor is typical Bali, it is sparse, Balinese blades that use these random patterns are seldom as dense as Jawa blades. A spot weld would be extremely unusual, are you able to do a good close up? I've run this image through PS but I cannot get a good enough image to determine anything.

1st February 2022, 04:10 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Shadejoy, i have noted that you edited your last post, but in your original post you mention that you took these photos from an auction catalog. I don't know if this is a current auction, but i will point out to you just in case you missed it in the forum rules, that it is absolutely forbidden to post and discuss keris that are currently being auctioned. Please take note. Thanks!

5th March 2022, 04:02 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Since the seller of this keris has stepped up and identified themselves and this keris is indeed still up for sale will now have to close this thread. My apologies to the owner/seller of this keris for deleting your post, but by identifying yourself you have shown everyone where it can be purchased. So i had to remove you from the equation. But i will repost the information you brought forward for the sake of understanding the answer to the questions that were raised about the spot by the gonjo. If you have any questions about this deletion or the closing of this thread feel free to PM me. And just a reminder to members, please do not post keris that are currently for sale. Thanks! The seller wrote: Hello all, this is a keris of mine. I checked the ganja and the shiny part which looked like a weld was in fact a drop of oil mixed with dirt after I cleaned it, it got stuck when I took it to my photo studio,it is removed now. The blade dates from the 19th century and is original and believed to be Balinese. The hilt is a later addition, which is tight so I am unfortunately not able to show the peksi.