1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[JT88]

The fittings are described as generic lancer fittings from what I’ve seen. But anyone with the money especially to mount such a special blade could essentially do what they want. These swords originally had velvet on the scabbard. Too bad it’s gone, the color could clue to which unit.

I have a Turkish smith buddy who specializes in classical Ottoman weapons. He says it is 16th-17th century maybe early 18th. Ottomans transition to more what we would call a “pala” in that timeframe.

Also the type of writing on the side lends a clue, it is an older Turkish dialect he says.

I’ve been working on the wootz today, carefully balancing leaving the aging and bringing out the wootz. It’s incredible quality of wootz, wait til I post some photos of it. Puts my pala to shame.

[Richard G]

I would like to further expand Bryce's point that mamelukes were not restricted to Lancer regiments. They were also not restricted to the army, or military in general. They were, and still are, in common use by civilians when in uniform. Thus British Governor Generals, Lieutenant Governors, Lord Lieutenants etc. when 'suited and booted' would all typically carry a mameluke. When you remember the extent of the British Empire you realise there were a fair few of these. Even now senior diplomatic staff carry a sword (generally a court or small sword), but also possibly mamelukes in the past. When you consider that prior to independence there were 584 Princeley States in the British Raj in India, each having a British Political Officer and probably staff you can conceive there must have been a market of sorts for such swords.
As this sword has no markings and no indications of military origins I wouldn't rule out it being a civilian sword.
Best wishes
Richard
PS. If British, I would generally expect to see a cutler's name on the locket. But I am sure exceptions do exist.

[awdaniec666]

I attach some examples of turkish blades from different times.

Images 1-3: 15th century (All Topkapi Museum Instanbul)

Image 4-5: 16th - 17th century (Mueso de la real armeria, Madrid + Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Image 6: 18th century (Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Note the older the blade, the more prominent the so called "hammer" by the yelman.
Good luck in your research.

Source: W.Zablocki - Ciecia prawdziwa szabla.

[JT88]

Thanks for the responses!

Every example I can find with these type of fittings is attributed to a lancer regiment. Civilian use possibility I don’t think is very high unless the owner straight imitated the lancer regimental style. There is such a wide range of non-uniform Mamelukes attributed to both the British and French I simply don’t think it likely it’s owner imitated a lancers.

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence. Later palas have the T spine style as mine does from the 18-19th century. This yelman style is from likely the 17th century. I misspoke he believes it is 16-17th century. The swords skin itself was quite old, it had active rust on multiple locations which I removed and what appeared to be possible plating in a couple places that also had rust under it thus I removed it. I am nearly complete with it, just needs some finishing touches and I can post some better photos.

Regards

[Calien]

any sources for civilian mamelukes? I have never seen one. This one I own has no cutlers mark either and most of the early ones with oriental blade dont have them, either British or French. This is what it looked like originally (many years before it came to me) when it had the scabbard and green velvet allegedly given to the 19th lancers before they dissolved in 1821.

[Richard G]

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

[Calien]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

He was a major general, and thats the 1831 regulation mameluke for generals. When you said civilian did you mean dress uniform?

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

As Calien said that is a general, I’d like to see some purely civilian swords, not retired military.

I misspoke about fullers, yes they’re on eastern swords but I see no connection between age and fullers as you originally said.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by JT88

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence.

You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect

[JT88]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect

Show me some with double fullers

[awdaniec666]

"Mameluke saber" is a term created in the 19th century Europe when it comes to weapons like yours.
You asked for the blade and I gave you hints and information which I have. You said fullers are a western-only thing and I just let well respected authors answer that pointing on their literature. Make of that what you wish.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by JT88

Show me some with double fullers

There you go. Double fullers on Osman I saber. Founder of the Ottoman dynasty. 13th century.