Any ideas on the origin?

[kino]

Any forum members seen this type of hilt before? Does the carving on the
scabbard give any clues?

[nechesh]

Kino, aren't you going to show us the blade?

[zelbone]

yes and yes

[kino]

I will post a photo of the blade on Friday, that is when I will take delivery.

Zel, I see similar scabbard in the group photo of your cutting test blades.

[Ian]

Kino:

We need to see this sword out of the sheath.

The scabbard looks Visayan to me, similar to the style of scabbard found on the deity hilted swords from Panay -- an older style with the wooden block suspension system (I believe Zel has said this style dates to pre-1900). The carving on the scabbard, with its repeated four leaf flower design, is similar to that seen on scabbards of knives and swords coming from the Eastern Visayas (Samar, Leyte) but I'm not sure if it is a common motif in the Western Visayas. The carved hilt is a form that I have not seen previously (appears to be a flower form, or perhaps a variant of naga). The octagonal ferrule and handle are consistent with a Panay/Negros (Western Visayas) origin. The irregularly shaped disk guard (is it horn or wood?) also suggests Western Visayas.

When we see the blade I would expect it to have the usual chisel-ground edge seen on most Visayan swords and knives.

Ian.

[zelbone]

Yes, Kino, you do see similar scabbards in that photo

No need to see your blade.

[themorningstar]

and.... survey says.... "it's a sundang!!!"

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by zelbone

yes and yes

Why the cryptic responses, Zel? If you've got information you don't wish to share at this time, why post at all?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by themorningstar

and.... survey says.... "it's a sundang!!!"

This one's getting a bit old, don't you think themorningstar?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by themorningstar

and.... survey says.... "it's a sundang!!!"

Well T, it's not even a matter of whether or not it's getting old as Andrew suggests (must admit it made me chuckle a bit ), but it just doesn't address the question at hand.... ORIGIN.

[Spunjer]

This one's getting a bit old, don't you think themorningstar?

i don't understand, andrew. i believe the morningstar is right. what kino has is indeed a sundang. tho, i must admit, i never seen one like it before

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i don't understand, andrew. i believe the morningstar is right. what kino has is indeed a sundang. tho, i must admit, i never seen one like it before

Hi Ron. To me, it's getting a bit old because it states the obvious, and we've seen this response time and again recently. Of course it's a sundang. I suspect Kino, and anyone who reads this forum, already knows that.

I also suspect Kino was looking for more specific information, if available.

[VVV]

Great sword and a very interesting hilt.
Unfortunately all the Filipinos I meet favours the new Ginuntings and Talibongs to the older ones so I don't know much about Visayan swords.
But maybe these two swords can be of some help?
One of them has a floral hilt and the other one has a resembling ferrule as well as similarities on the scabbard.
I assume, as Ian stated, that those kind of scabbards are the older version.
Is your "Sundang" also smaller in size than the more common versions?
Your hilt reminds me slightly of a Makara.
The reason for Makara is that I think it looks like it has an elephant's trunk?

Michael

PS In case you ever get tired of it, please send me a mail...

[MABAGANI]

round and round we go
judging or moderating
a bolo it is

spung see what you did
haiku this and haiku that
sundang aint enough

lolz

[Battara]

I agree with Ian and Zel. My first thought for this PI sharp pointy thing (specific enough? ) was Visayan, especially the floral carving on the scabbard.

Block carving is pre-1900, eh? Interesting.....

[kino]

Ian, thanks for the information. It does have that flower/naga carving on the hilt. You were correct on the blade, it's chisel ground. The guard is Carabao horn.

VVV, it is on the small side. The overall length is 22.5 in., blade is 16.5 in. Very similar scabbards.

The 3rd photo is of a Naga hilt on a Bangkung, just for comparison.

[zelbone]

LOLZ.....nice !!!

I suspected a sanduko but instead we have a talibong with a pueo bulaklak.

btw...the hanger block does not determine age, but rather point of origin.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

round and round we go
judging or moderating
a bolo it is

spung see what you did
haiku this and haiku that
sundang aint enough

lolz

lol. Touche! I'll play...

sharing is done here
the moderating burden
we carry for you

pushing and pulling
secrets kept best are quiet
hoping friends would stop

[MABAGANI]

peeling the layers
ask an oldtimer the truth
lotus or onion

I remember before i left the gathering I mentioned that as we go deeper into research the knowledge starts going over peoples head.
So i would not argue with an old man who knows how to use one that its not a bolo or sundang...lolz

[Andrew]

the quest for knowlege
to be encouraged and fed
teaching not taunting

Believe me, it's really quite easy to go over my head with this stuff. I read entire threads here without really understanding what you guys are talking about. Perhaps I'm picking up a thing or two and expanding my knowlege. Maybe someday, I'll understand. Until then, I'll continue to ask questions. Hopefully, the old men will indulge me and deign to answer a few now and then.

Do you really think I was arguing over what is or isn't a sundang? I'm saddened.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by zelbone

LOLZ.....nice !!!

I suspected a sanduko but instead we have a talibong with a pueo bulaklak.

btw...the hanger block does not determine age, but rather point of origin.

Thank you, Zel. Any thoughts on origin?

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Do you really think I was arguing over what is or isn't a sundang? I'm saddened.

You misunderstand
I speak of generations
knowledge forgotten

I write in general, each generation, region, etc. will call it bolo, sundang, tenegre, pinuti, etc...none are wrong, so a full description might include all, sort of like the zonneveld book. After handling the collections on the weekend, i understand a few of the visayan swords a little more but much remains a puzzle.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

You misunderstand
I speak of generations
knowledge forgotten

I write in general, each generation, region, etc. will call it bolo, sundang, tenegre, pinuti, etc...none are wrong, so a full description might include all, sort of like the zonneveld book. After handling the collections on the weekend, i understand a few of the visayan swords a little more but much remains a puzzle.

Ah, I see now. I did misunderstand. Thanks.

[Ian]

Zel:

I have an old thread bookmarked on the preivous Forum because you provided some very interesting information about scabbards from Panay and their dating. That thread was from 2003 and is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001532.html

Just to highlight your comments that were most illuminating, I have copied some of them below. I'm wondering if there is an update to that old discussion that you would like to add here, because I think you have changed your mind since then on a few points. You were responding to some picture of bolos that Federico had posted.

Theanks Zel.

Ian.

--------------------------

From post of 04-02-2003

"Nice bolos, Federico!

You pose an interesting question that can only be speculated. Both bolos are Visayan, but the diety-hilt bolo is most likely from Panay...the other one is probably from Samar, Leyte, or even Cebu.

First of all, that diety-hilt bolo is much older than WWII vintage. True it might have been acquired by the previous owner during that time, but it was probably an old bolo then and not brand new. For one thing, it has a round crossguard made probably of a hardwood (kamagong or narra) or carabao horn. In general you wouldn't find any crossguard on any Visayan sword, but it seems around the turn of the 20th century crossguards became in vogue, probably due to the influence of the Spanish American war. Usually, these crossguards are made of brass, tin, or iron and fashioned into an "S" or "D" guard which was popular up to around WWII. However, the round wooden/carabao horn crossguard pre-dates the later Spanish influenced "S" or "D" guard. Of all the older diety-hilt swords I've seen and handled, the truly older examples either had the round guard or no guard at all. It seems that the ones with the metal guards were made around the Span-Am war to WWII. Another thing I've noticed is that on your example, there is no round or octaganol iron/brass ferrule. This is another good indicator of age. The older examples of diety hilt bolos would not have a ferrule or have just a ferrule made of thinner sheet metal. The ferrules of later bolos tend to be more robust and made of heavier guage iron or brass and brazed/soldered into a solid piece. Sometimes the really older diety-hilt bolos would have the grip wrapped in cord or woven rattan similar to talibons contemporary to it. Finally, the scabbard is a good indicator of age as well. The older diety hilt bolos were sheathed in scabbards similar to talibon scabbards with the exception that the toe-end was squared off and blunt...(blunt, squared-off toes tend to be a Panay trait.) The construction is very similar to the familiar talibon scabbard with a carved "hanger" block on one side where it is drilled through or slotted that a cord belt can pass through. However, sometime before the late 19th century the scabbards from Panay evolved in a way that the wooden hanger blocked disappeared altogether and instead was replaced with a leather collar stitched together at the throat. Woven rattan bands were still used to hold the scabbard together, but metals bands began to appear. Fancier scabbards were covered in horn or tortoiseshell and bound with engraved brass bands. However, the distinguishing trait of these Panay scabbards was and is still the leather covered throat. I posted several different examples in a previous thread a few months ago. Maybe someone can find the link. If I had to guess, I'd say that diety hilt bolo of yours is probably mid to late 19th century.

Now how that bolo ended up in Leyte can only be speculated. Is it possible that this sailor took a side trip to Panay? Maybe..Anything could be possible. It was probably brought to Panay from an even previous owner or it could possibly have been part of a trade and used as barter. Who knows for sure...traveling between islands in the Philippines was not uncommon. In fact, at my grandparents home on Panay they have an old Bagobo sword and an old Moro kris displayed. They apparently belonged to my great-great-grandfather. My grandmother said he use to travel and trade goods between the Visayas and Mindanao. Unfortunatley, my grandmother wouldn't let me take the two swords from their estate. Oh well, I tried!"

[zelbone]

Hello Ian,

What I have said in the past (such as in that old thread that you quoted) is still quite true. However, that was 3 years ago. And since then, much has been learned. I've handled hundreds of Visayan swords, I've traveled to the Visayas, I've sought old pandays (both woodcarvers and smiths), and searched for real swordsmen. It wasn't an easy journey and the dialect differences made it even more so. Every questioned answered brought more questions. And as an "outsider," I was dealt with great suspicion. I've been threatened, challenged to test my sword skills, and tested for my knowledge so far. Though I've gained a wealth of knowledge, there are still questions that need to be answered...more so esoteric than general.

If I seem "cryptic" or hesitant to post any further information or updates, I have my reasons. For one thing, the Visayas is a broad region with different dialects. Two words can mean the same thing....and one word can mean several things. And another thing is that I don't want to be quoted like Cato having everything I say assumed as the definate answer. Anyone who's really studied the Visayan sword (or Moro swords for that reason) knows that there are no definate answers. Furthermore, the information I've learned could be quite esoteric and confusing for those that want definate answers. Ask anyone that came to our recent gathering....like Mabagani or Spunger...and they'll tell you that they learned quite a bit, but left even more confused. I'm still trying to piece together the jigsaw puzzle. And some of that information I received IS priviledged information sworn to secrecy to those that gave it to me. It would be dishonorable for me to post that information on a public forum. I hope you can understand.

....sometimes "it's a sundang" is the best and safest answer.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by zelbone

What I have said in the past (such as in that old thread that you quoted) is still quite true. However, that was 3 years ago. And since then, much has been learned. (...)

And another thing is that I don't want to be quoted like Cato having everything I say assumed as the definate answer. Anyone who's really studied the Visayan sword (or Moro swords for that reason) knows that there are no definate answers.

My unasked-for advise - just go with it. Probably 80% of what I said about dha two years ago I now know to be wrong. But, it you never report up-dated findings, the errors do stay out there. IMO it is up to the seeker to be sure they are looking at the most recent information. The reader will note that I virtually always preface my comments with "little is known ..." or "our knowledge is constantly changing ...," etc.

Originally Posted by zelbone

And some of that information I received IS priviledged information sworn to secrecy to those that gave it to me. It would be dishonorable for me to post that information on a public forum. I hope you can understand.

This, on the other hand, is an entirely different situation. You do well to honor the wishes of those who have confided to you, of course.

[Ian]

Thanks Zel.

I appreciate the difficulty of keeping ones ideas clear and up to date, especially when the subject is complex and imprecise.

The purpose of my recent post was not so much about nomenclature, although that certainly is an interesting and confusing field, but on changes in styles over time and how to date Visayan weapons to a certain period. In the piece you wrote three years ago, you talked about changing styles and how these might help in dating a particular weapon. That sounded very useful information and I have carried it with me as I've looked at various pieces from the Western Visayas.

The information that you provided was quite specific and will get you quoted, and once out there it will continue to be quoted. The best we can hope for is that we are quoted accurately. Which brings me to the query I posted for you. Am I still quoting you accurately, based on what you said in 2003, or is it necessary to update or amend some of the information that you posted previously (within the bounds of confidentiality that you mentioned)? If it's, say, 80% correct, what is the 20% that's no longer accurate?

Regards,

Ian.

Originally Posted by zelbone

Hello Ian,

What I have said in the past (such as in that old thread that you quoted) is still quite true. However, that was 3 years ago. And since then, much has been learned. I've handled hundreds of Visayan swords, I've traveled to the Visayas, I've sought old pandays (both woodcarvers and smiths), and searched for real swordsmen. It wasn't an easy journey and the dialect differences made it even more so. Every questioned answered brought more questions. And as an "outsider," I was dealt with great suspicion. I've been threatened, challenged to test my sword skills, and tested for my knowledge so far. Though I've gained a wealth of knowledge, there are still questions that need to be answered...more so esoteric than general.

If I seem "cryptic" or hesitant to post any further information or updates, I have my reasons. For one thing, the Visayas is a broad region with different dialects. Two words can mean the same thing....and one word can mean several things. And another thing is that I don't want to be quoted like Cato having everything I say assumed as the definate answer. Anyone who's really studied the Visayan sword (or Moro swords for that reason) knows that there are no definate answers. Furthermore, the information I've learned could be quite esoteric and confusing for those that want definate answers. Ask anyone that came to our recent gathering....like Mabagani or Spunger...and they'll tell you that they learned quite a bit, but left even more confused. I'm still trying to piece together the jigsaw puzzle. And some of that information I received IS priviledged information sworn to secrecy to those that gave it to me. It would be dishonorable for me to post that information on a public forum. I hope you can understand.

....sometimes "it's a sundang" is the best and safest answer.

[zelbone]

Ian,

What I posted in 2003 for the most part holds true today, but only for a particular class of deity-hilt sundang from a particular region. The only addendum I would contribute now concerns the scabbard. The hanger-block evolution mentioned in that post is true for a certain sword. However, in other regions the hanger block is still used and made today. This helps identify the point of origin, not age. But there are probably a dozen or so aspects besides the hanger block on the scabbard alone to help determine point of origin and just as many aspects to help determine age...mostly aesthetic and some quite esoteric.

Then you have the sword itself. The blade alone has more than a dozen characteristics to look at to help determine point of origin and age....that's the easy part. Adding the hilt adds more aspects to investigate. There are probably over two dozen aesthetic and esoteric characteristics to look for in a deity-hilt or non-deity figural hilt pommel. And then you need to consider the rest of the hilt as well.

Once you look at every possible aspect of the whole sword, then it is possible to determine point of origin....sometimes as accurately within 20 km. The same holds true for age. But it's knowing what characteristics to look for and the region associated with those particular characteristics, that will help you identify the sundang, the point of origin, age, etc. Unfortunately, most of that information I'm bounded by confidentiality.

[BSMStar]

I think understand where Zelbone is coming from.

We have to keep in mind that we are talking about cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. This is a sensitive area. A sword is not just a sword… as it is thought of in a western mind set, just steel, wood and some interesting designs. There is more to it. There are values, traditions, beliefs and (dare I use the words) integral secrets that are inherent to these wonderful edged weapons… making the study of these objects a bit difficult and slow going (for us outsiders). Knowledge and trust has to be earned, it is time consuming and worth the effort. The unfortunate side effect is, you can not always share what you now know. To share is to break a trust, and to lose an invaluable resource. But more importantly, it means that you will lose a valued friend (truly, this is greatest lost of all).

I have seen these debates in the past, when we end up with generic names like Sundang. Sometimes it because the melding of hundreds of years, names for swords become a bit blurred (one group’s Sundang is another groups Tenegre). Honestly, you can not just give it one label and be 100% correct all of the time. On the other hand, sometimes the question “how do you know that it is…” can cross in to the cultural and ethnic sensitive areas. It is like being caught between the rock and the hard spot. For me, I always try to honor other people’s cultural and ethnic traditions and beliefs. I may not always understand them, but I do my best to honor them. I believe I do understand where Zelbone is coming from, and for me, I respect his position.

[VANDOO]

PERHAPS WE SHOULD GIVE UP ON ASSIGNING A NAME FOR SOME SWORDS AND JUST GO FOR ORIGIN, AGE, TYPE AND FUNCTION.

I ORIGINALLY THOUGHT A SUDANG WAS A CERTIAN TYPE OF MORO KRIS BUT JUDGING FROM ITS WIDE USE AND WHO AND WHERE YOU ASK, ITS ABOUT THE SAME AS PARANG IT MEANS KNIFE, SWORD OR SHARP POINTY THING BE IT TOOL OR WEAPON.

PERHAPS FOR INSTANCE
PHILIPPINE VISAYAN TYPE A , BEVELED SINGLE EDGED BLADE WITH DEEP BELLY AND SHARP POINT WITH CARVED HORN HANDLE, POSSIBLY NAGA FORM, AND HORN GAURD. WOOD SCABBARD WITH CARVED BLOCK FOR CARRING CORD, FASTENED WITH RATTAN BANDS. KNIFE PRIMARY USE AS TOOL SECONDARY USE AS WEAPON. ABOVE AVERAGE CARVED DECORATION .APPROX LATE 1890'S TO EARLY 1930'S

FUNNY IT OFTEN GETS MORE COMPLICATED AND CONFUSING THE MORE YOU LEARN