cartouche

[fernando]

Beautiful sword.
Amazing thing; it never occurs to me calling these, and the like, rapier blades ... independently of their proportions. I take it those are a different universe .

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful sword.
Amazing thing; it never occurs to me calling these, and the like, rapier blades ... independently of their proportions. I take it those are a different universe .

Because they are not "rapier blades"...

The rapier is defined by both the blade and the hilt... or at least for me.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Because they are not "rapier blades"...

The rapier is defined by both the blade and the hilt... or at least for me.

I have to disagree Marius, considering the huge difference between Pappenheimers and Swept Hilts and Cup hilts and etc... the only constant is the blade.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I have to disagree Marius, considering the huge difference between Pappenheimers and Swept Hilts and Cup hilts and etc... the only constant is the blade.

You are in fact making my point!

Swept hilt, Pappenheim, cup hilt, clam shell hilt and ring hilt are ALL typical and DEFINING rapier hilts.

Moreover, some later 17th century Spanish rapiers had very thin and narrow, as well as rather short blades, yet they are still considered to be rapiers.

However, if you take the very same blade to a smallsword hilt, you will have a smallsword all the way.

Now have a look at the rapier below. Notice anything strange?!
It is the smallsword I posted previously, to which I replaced the hilt with a clam shell Spanish rapier hilt and... ta-da... here you have a rapier!

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

You are in fact making my point!

Swept hilt, Pappenheim, cup hilt, clam shell hilt and ring hilts are ALL typical and DEFINING rapier hilts.

Moreover, some later 17th century Spanish rapiers had very thin and narrow, as well as rather short blades, yet they are still considered to be rapiers.

However, if you take the very same blade to a smallsword hilt, you will have a smallsword all the way.

Point well made Marius. My two swords I mentioned with old rapier blades and new court-sword hilts are very definitely 'Courtswords' but with rapier blades (short and narrow). It is the blade I was naming though, not the entire package, and that is why I opted for calling them 'transitional'; although, without getting into semantics, they are -strictly speaking and quite rightly- not what have been considered transitional rapiers up to now. Hence my confusion.
ps Thank-you, I couldn't remember clam and ring.

[urbanspaceman]

Reference Marius: yes, when Shotley Bridge began work in 1687 the smallswords they initially produced were all narrow broadsword blades (see pic). They were actually all Solingen manufacture and smuggled in by Mohll in 1687 to get the business up and running. This is why the most closely associated swords of Shotley Bridge had the Passau Wolf (not the Bushy Tailed Fox: that came a couple of years later) and the lettering Shotle(Y) and Bridg(E). All very confusing which was what was intended. The lettering was added because otherwise everyone would naturally assume - having a Passau Wolf - that they were Solingen manufacture and not the new 'Hollow Sword Blade Company's' output.
Incidentally: broadsword bladed smallswords were first choice of Scotsmen as they were unhappy with the weight and lack of cutting edges of the new trefoil blades. Shotley Bridge is walking distance from Scotland.
The smallsword pic below is a stock reference image from our local museum: hence the poor resolution and lack of markings; but I have handled it and it has a Passau Wolf and SHOTLEY and BRIDG which dates it to 1687 -1690.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful sword.
I take it those are a different universe .

Yes, Fernando, I only visit this planet occasionally.

[urbanspaceman]

BTW Marius, that is a magnificent sword; is it from your collection? I am jealous indeed.
Re. capital letters: this is yet another possibility that keeps confusing me. They could be capitals or they could be tall letters such as l etc.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

BTW Marius, that is a magnificent sword; is it from your collection? I am jealous indeed.
Re. capital letters: this is yet another possibility that keeps confusing me. They could be capitals or they could be tall letters such as l etc.

Capital letters or not, they are of different height and I believe that's because they signal the beginning of a new abbreviated word.

And to make everything more complicated, one must first guess the language, as it cannot be taken for granted that is Italian.

[urbanspaceman]

No, it is definitely not Italian: my mother-in-law declared that.
However, she did say it may well be a colloquial dialect common parlance... she meant 'slang'.

[shayde78]

With the likely image of Cupid, I think the remaining words are "culo casto", which may translate to something like "chaste ass/butt/derrier". Maybe a bawdy refrain, or an admonishment to keep one's tail out of trouble.

Also, regarding the rapier/transitional rapier/small sword distinction, here is my (likely flawed) taxonomy - they all need to have thin(ish) blades designed primarily to facilitate an effective thrust. Cutting is a secondary function (if at all). It could have a rapier-like hilt, but if it has a cutter for a blade, not a rapier (i.e. 1728 pattern cup-hilt arming swords).

So, if it has the right blade, we are in the right genus. Further, all are designed for single hand use. Now, to determine species. Rapier and small sword are easy because they are distinct forms.

A rapier has the right blade. They have a proper hilt designed to protect an ungauntlented hand (side rings, swept hilt, plates (Pappenheim), cup). Some transitional rapier have these features, but to be a TRUE rapier, there must be a TRUE ricasso that the fingers can grip by hooking over the quillion, and yet still be protected by the guard. No such ricasso, not a rapier. Personally, I would call anything with this exposed ricasso a rapier regardless of length (within reason). Because these typically have long blades and heavy hilts, they were used to attack, while the off-hand provided defense.

A smallsword typically falls into a range with a much shorter blade that allowed for defenses parries followed by quick ripostes (counter attacks). The shorter lighter blade could be better controlled without hooking the fingers over the quillion. So, these have the grip of the hilt touching the guard. There is no ricasso behind the guard. Control is achieved by subtle fingering. The pas d'anes became vestigial until they were mere ornamentation.

A transitional rapier is harder to classify because it is indeed transitional. The distinctions are more gradual. It is hard (impossible) to draw a clear line between one form and the next, however, between transitional and Smallsword. But, using my above criteria, the moment the ricasso is eliminated (or moved in front of the guard), it is no longer a rapier, but in the transitional realm. Without this ricasso, the swept hilt becomes obsolete. I can't think of a transitional rapier with a swept hilt. It simply doesn't make sense if the blade were to be sharpened all the way to the grip. So, transitional rapier have dish, cup, shell hilts. They still have rather long blades, and therefore, a substantial pommel. They also very often have fully functional past d'anes (or rings, or branches). These allow a grip similar to the finger-over-the-quillion grip, but again, without touching a ricasso. Because these are transitional, they blend from rapier lengths and weights down to Smallsword. I've yet to establish a clear criteria to determine when something can be called a short sword, but it has a lot to do with handling. If it can be utilized effectively for both defense and offense, it is a Smallsword. This wieldabilty also includes the type of footwork needed to establish distance and void relative to how quickly the weapon can be used to deflect an attack, or change the line of one's own attack. Again, the differences are negotiable, but you know it when you have it in hand. If the weights of such swords were more often listed in reference material (this forum included) we could probably determine the weight and balance at which we say this is a transitional rapier, and this is a smallsword.

Apologies for digressing, but the topic came up and I've been meaning to take the time to share my classification, and see what folks think. That said, perhaps I need to keep my culo casto, and stay out of trouble!

[mariusgmioc]

"Culo casto" is definitely a posibility. And an interesting one.
In this case the different heights of the letters might be for esthetic reasons.

Regarding your classification for rapiers, it matches pretty much mine. As I said earlier: "the rapier is defined by both the blade and the hilt." An yes, the presence of a functional ricasso able to be used for the finger is quite essential for defining a rapier (hence the "rapier grip"). However, this is much more important when distinguishing the early rapiers from the side-swords. But I think such a discussion is worth a new separate thread.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by shayde78

... but to be a TRUE rapier, there must be a TRUE ricasso that the fingers can grip by hooking over the quillion, and yet still be protected by the guard. No such ricasso, not a rapier. Personally, I would call anything with this exposed ricasso a rapier regardless of length (within reason). Because these typically have long blades and heavy hilts, they were used to attack, while the off-hand provided defense...

Also this concept could be negotiated ... perhaps. Indeed it was implicit that, as rapiers they were conceived, a weapon to accompany a civilian for his protection and (potentially) street fencing, consisting of a thin long blade and a hand (cup bowl) protection being obliged. Past time, sturdier blades had to be taken into account, namely for military (and not only) purposes. And, on the other hand, these slender long blades started to equip also other sword variants; which, in my humble perspective, were those 'swords' with a 'rapier blade'.
Attached a cup hilt sword that you can hardly consider a rapier, due its 830X25 mm. blade, which has its ricasso resource so predominant that the grip can only lodge three fingers.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Yes, Fernando, I only visit this planet occasionally.

-

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

-

Why surprised?!

With all this Covid-19 crisis, with mandatory quarantine and PCR tests did you expect him to visit more often?!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why surprised?!

With all this Covid-19 crisis, with mandatory quarantine and PCR tests did you expect him to visit more often?!

Or maybe i was misunderstood .

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful sword.
Amazing thing; it never occurs to me calling these, and the like, rapier blades ... independently of their proportions. I take it those are a different universe .

Hi Fernando. I assumed this was a reference to my online name i.e. Urbanspaceman.
The world of 'Militaria' and etc does appear like an alien planet on frequent occasions; present company excepted of course.

[urbanspaceman]

Regarding the cartouche: mother-in-law did suggest "culo casto" as being a bawdy refrain; as I said earlier, her description was "common parlance in colloquial dialect". She obviously left it to her daughter (my ex) to explain its postural pertinence. I have lived with that meaning since, but when I came across that very similar alternative cartouche on a French blade I wondered if there was a common significance to the figure. Cupid definitely fits the bill on mine.
In regard to the business of 'rapier or not' your taxonomy, Shayde, is definitely worthy of an independent thread as you raise so many debateable issues that you should give everyone an opportunity to agree or disagree whenever. Consequently, I won't labour this thread's indulgence further in that regard except to say perhaps the 'schools' might be the ultimate arbiters; as you mention, how it is used is critical and to that end,I have to declare that the sword of mine in question with its 92cm relatively broad blade would take some strength to be used as a smallsword; however, given the size of the hilt, it was obviously commissioned for a hefty hand. Isn't this fun?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Fernando. I assumed this was a reference to my online name i.e. Urbanspaceman.
The world of 'Militaria' and etc does appear like an alien planet on frequent occasions; present company excepted of course.

To tell you the truth, the last thing i had in mind was alluding to your username.
What i meant to say was that i viewed the subject (rapier blades as such), belonging in a different "domain" wich, in the present context, in my native language (and not only) directs the matter to something other than galatic perspectives .
Keep safe.