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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 4
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This belonged my late grandfather who was posted in the Middle East during WWII. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I can provide additional photos if needed. Many thanks!
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
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A very nice kindjal! I think that his blade was made at the end of the 19th century by the Ottoman Turks, and the silver fittings were made by a master from among the Caucasian immigrants - muhajirs.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 244
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Looks like a typical example.
The mountings could be from Kubachi or another place in Dagestan. The blade is maybe chechen or dagestani, too. Like Ren Ren I estimate it was made in the late 19th century. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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The two dates on the scabbard are the same
1208 or 1258 This kindjal is not from the 18th c so I vote for 1258, eg. 1842 AD. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 436
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In the picture of the back of the hilt, is that a twist core in the fuller?
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#6 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 456
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This is Circassian work. The Circassian diaspora brought ~ 700,000 to the Ottoman Empire. Many served in the military, they were often stationed in the Ottoman provinces of Syria, Iraq and Egypt. So, very good old Circassian weapons often show up there.
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#7 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 456
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It would be interesting to know why Kubur says this kindjal is not from the 18th century.
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#8 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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![]() ![]() In fact, I will happily change my mind if you have some 18th c similar examples |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
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Being a pessimist is great! Each time you are either right or pleasantly surprised.
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#11 |
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Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 4
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I have since found a 1972 letter from the Royal Ontario Museum that dated it at 1793 and translated the inscription to likely be the name of the craftsman: Sadr al-Din ibn Mustafa. Fayum is also mentioned, possibly meaning that is was made in the Fayum District of Egypt. I've attached closer photos of the fuller on both sides and there are groves parallel to the fuller but otherwise nothing that looks like twist core. Thanks for introducing me to these new terms! My mother also mentioned that my grandfather told her he was given the sword from a friend (possible relative?) back in the 30's when they were both having fun with motorcycles and archeological digs. The friend was a rather famous fellow who spent a great deal of time in Egypt during WWI, and the sword had been presented to him. That's all I know for now. Thanks for your replies and more comments are very welcome!
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#12 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I'm not pessimistic, just realistic ![]() ![]() ![]() I mentioned the two dates, but this kindjal smells the 19th c. And I don't know 18th c. kindjals. Oliver knows better and he said Egypt. Cairo most likely. Kiwatek will probably explain why Fayum is mentioned. It's interesting that the blade maker stamp was removed, probably because it was made of gold. |
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#13 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 936
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As for dating, it's unlikely we can claim with certainly the work to be 19th and not 18th Century due to being a few years too early from when 19thC began ![]() |
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#14 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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#15 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 368
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#16 |
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 436
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Now I am not an expert and only know what I can read and very rarely see. These following issues are what I ask myself. Everyone please feel free to correct my ignorance.
We are using a date from the sheath not the blade. The onion at the tip seems to me like possibly a later repair. If not isn't a larger final on the chape a sign of mid nineteenth manufacture? I If one compares the twisted wire at the top of the throat with the hilt that meets it, the hilt is considerable more worn. It could just be a repair, there have been several, but sheaths we know often are replaced before the knife is worn out. What did the sheath originally have as a covering? Red leather, shagreen, cloth and galloon? If we look at it then without the sheath. Is it mono-steel or laminate? Wouldn't mono-steel would to push the date of manufacture back. It's profile is hard to tell from the picture angles but they seem vaguely triangular and intended as a stabbing weapon. Coupled with the wide flattened rib in the forte this would move my estimation to an earlier period. Then there is the koftgari. The pattern on the front of the blade at least seems to imitate popular stiles from Tbilisi. Has anyone seen a 18th century Circassian kindjal with a vine meander that resembled bird shapes with providence? Of course the koftgari could be a later edition this piece has obviously has a wonderful working life. In one picture you can still see the original grind marks on the back edge while at least from the camera angle the front edge has been re-sharpened. Back to the koftgari, which makes me wonder, is it Circassian piece or a multi ethnic piece of someone working in Georgia in a Circassian style? Who knows this piece is obviously well traveled, but to me 1794 does seem early. I would love to know what all the inscriptions say and in what language? As I led off with; I'm no expert. Just an interested party raising more questions than answers ![]() |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Well said, I cannot agree more.
It's a shame that we don't have a translation. All the forum members will agree on a mid 19th c. date without the inscriptions. All the kindjals with gold seals that I found in my books are from the mid 19thc. With the inscriptions it's another story, because the inscriptions looks consistent with the date and the scabbard. And usualy blades are older than the dresses... not the opposite. And it looks like a 0 and not a 5, nevertheless I still believe that the guy put a dot instead of a 0. Or it's just a commemorative date. ![]() |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: British Columbia
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I've attached the letter I mentioned earlier from the ROM. Ed Keall was an assistant curator at the time - his qualifications are listed on the ROM website (google "Ed Keall Royal Ontario Museum"). It's possible he would revise his translation if he looked at it again with ~40 more years experience under his belt. Let me know if more photos (different areas, different angles) would help - thanks!
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#19 |
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Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 4
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Deleted repeated post
Last edited by Tracy; 29th January 2021 at 07:23 PM. |
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