Identifying Modern Wootz

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by RobT

...I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset.

Sincerely,
RobT

This instantly reminded me of 'The Patriot', Benjamin Martin and his obsession with chairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=2lvz3v_dtyA

[ALEX]

I was hoping for more meaningful discussion... so allow me to reignite the subject. Here are 2 newly made wootz blades: one on the left, next to old Assad'Allah blade (for comparison), is made in Turkey. One on the right is made in Finland. The first is a sword blade. Both look just as good as original, and stunning work.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Both look just as good as original, and stunning work.

To me, both new samples look very, very different from the old wootz, and I am am surprised yo cannot see the difference.

In the old wootz, you have very fine long streaks flowing in intricately curved/twirled/watery (like winding rivers) patterns.

In the new wootz, you have short patches more like a mosaic.

PS:
I am also quite suspicious about the claims of many more or less recent wootz makers claiming they managed to fully reproduce antique wootz patterns.
Even the late Al Pendray published together with Verhoeven some images of wootz he produced (photo 1a, 1b)
that looked pretty much the same like the antique one (albeit different - please notice the more mosaic-like pattern of the base metal). Yet, none of his hundreds of wootz knives he commercially made (photo 2) displayed the same pattern. Why?!

Also much more recently, a Finnish blacksmith claimed to have reproduced exactly the patterns of antique wootz. Yet, when I asked him to make a blade with the same pattern for me to buy, he declined, saying that he still wants to refine the method.

Also the Russian Ivan Kirpichev comes very close to reproducing the antique wootz patterns (see photo 3). However, he told me he cannot make bigger blades and cannot get consistent results.

So, I believe that while some modern blacksmiths have managed to come closer to reproducing the antique wootz, none is really capable to fully do it with consistency.

However, I have seen a new sword blade that reproduced the old patterns almost perfectly, made by a Russian blacksmith and mounted by Gotscha Lagidse. Yet, it was pattern welded! But it was so deceivingly looking that reportedly even Zaqro Nonikashvili thought it to be wootz.

[mariusgmioc]

PPS:

It should be noted that even antique 19th century Indian or Persian wootz did not display the old watery patterns anymore as 19th century wootz looked more like the crystalline wootz that is produced these modern times.

You can see such an example of a Persian khanjar made around 1850 at the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26676

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

...To me, both new samples look very, very different from the old wootz, and I am am surprised yo cannot see the difference...

I cannot see much difference on the right-side sample from Finland, it looks similar to antique wootz pattern, isn't it? Not all antique wootz was universally superior. We should not grade the wootz quality by its age. There was good quality and bad quality wootz regardless of when it was made. some make good quality woots now, quite similar to original.. according to the photos and sources.

[Interested Party]

The rt side example looks like it could have been produced by a pool and eye lamination method.

To my understanding the ore that the crucible process used affected the pattern greatly, but I know very little. Wootz seems sort of an Eldorado to me. There may be several generations of hard work before it is understood.

The Al Pendray book is on my summer reading list.

Marius, what are the two bottom examples? Marked "Resim:1"

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

The rt side example looks like it could have been produced by a pool and eye lamination method..."

The example on the right is pure wootz, based on pattern.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Marius, what are the two bottom examples? Marked "Resim:1"

Ivan Kirpichev (see more below)

Originally Posted by ALEX

The example on the right is pure wootz, based on pattern.

Yes, it looks like, but I doubt that it is genuinely made in modern times.
Or it may be the pattern weld I was talking earlier, that was practically undistinguishable from old wootz.

Whoever claims to have done it, should be able to consistently reproduce these results and make some blades for sale (like Kirpichev does).

[Bryce]

G'day Alex,
Where did you get the right hand side photo from? To me it looks exactly like antique wootz. I have an antique blade with a very similar pattern.
Cheers,
Bryce