Three in one

Yannis · 21st May 2006, 05:19 PM

This is a vintage knife that combines 3 known (?) areas. Let me describe it.

The blade looks like the Trabzon knifes. But it has lot of fullers, some in strange directions and it is heavy engraved both sides and inlaid with silver. Also there is a date 1201 on it. 1787 in Georgian calendar.

If the date is true, the scabbard with the Caucasian style niello must be later.

But there is also niello in the hilt. And the hilt has the shape of a Montenegro knife!

To make the puzzle more interesting there is the engraving of a man holding a kilij and a flintlock rifle. My first thought is that of a Pontic knife. I knew that Pontians used to wear Trabzon knifes and kindjals in early 20th century but I have never seen anything like this before. Any idea is welcome.

ariel · 21st May 2006, 08:30 PM

And, on the top of it, the configuration of the scabbard, with it's swollen middle part, is just what is seen with Laz Bicags.
I am certain this example is from the Trabzon area. Good one. A keeper.

eftihis · 22nd May 2006, 12:44 PM

Hallo Yiannis,
Very beautiful knife. For me, there is no doubt that the knife is from Montenegro, i attach photos of a similar knife with exactly the same hilt, very characteristic of this area. The blade has much better work than my example, but looks very similar, therefore i think is also made in Montenegro.
However i believe is 19th century, and the proof is very obvious. The little guy on the design does handle a kilij, BUT NOT a flintlock! If you see carefully the mechanism is clearly a percusion one, which does not existed in 1787. The percusion was invented after 1820s, i am not sure when, and it took some decades to arrive in the balkans. Therefore i would date this after 1850.

Regarding the scabbard there is no doubt that is from trabzon area. Not only the configuration as Ariel says, but also the style of the niello work and most of all the shape of the scabbard which starts narrow get wider and has a long thin finish, is like a micrography of the laz yataghan scabbard!
Regards,
Eftihis

Yannis · 22nd May 2006, 02:11 PM

Eftihis, possibly you are right about percussion and date. I am not sure about the rest

I think the key here are these fullers. Please notice the crazy directions of them. I found nothing in books and sites. I wonder if anyone here has seen similar fullers anywhere.

Rivkin · 22nd May 2006, 11:05 PM

One of the keys here is niello - very typical caucasian work; indeed, niello of this type has been made in Trabzon; I doubt its production spread as far as Montenegro.

Concerning pontic greek affiliation - I don't know about Trabzon, but in Abchazia the policy of local ottoman leadership was to kill or seriously main every greek who spoke or wrote in greek (see "The Reports of the Edinburgh "Missionary Society in 1817-1818 with the supplement of the geographical and historical description of missions in Asian Russia"). For reasons I don't exactly understand ottoman policies in western georgia were more anti-greek than probably anywhere else, while the same logic did not apply to other languages. Therefore I would not expect anything from this area to bear any signature or writing in greek.

Yannis · 23rd May 2006, 12:45 AM

Rivkin, for me the signature is already there. I didn’t mention it before. In the area I know only Greeks to engrave warriors with their weapons on blades. Like the Hungarians more north. Still, I am possibly wrong.

Rick · 23rd May 2006, 02:49 AM

Yannis , I seem to remember similar fullering in a knife presented here for discussion some time back . Let me have a look through the archives ...

eftihis · 23rd May 2006, 09:01 AM

Hallo,
I post photos of a knife which i believe is from the same area. Look at the niello silverwork on the hilt. The style of work looks very similar. It certainly belonged to a Christian because of the Christian date, 1890. I have seen exactly the same style of knife so this must be a local variation somewhere.
Note the fish decoration on blade.
Regards, Eftihis

Rivkin · 25th July 2006, 06:45 PM

Did not know about armed people as a greek motiff, thank you Yannis. Attached are photos of some "caucasian" knifes (I would guess surmese ?).

Yannis · 25th July 2006, 07:16 PM

I like to see old threads revive with new data. The scabbards are very very similar. But still there are a lot of differences between the knifes. Monster, hilt, fullers…
I don’t know the size of the knife in your picture but for sure mine with 43cm is not a “utility” knife.

Radu Transylvanicus · 25th July 2006, 07:46 PM

Its interesting to see that a scholar like Astvatsaturian makes no mention of such knives in Caucaus, but I think the niello does look "avaric".
To further justify the melange, city of Trabzon have always had a well sized Armenian, Abkhaz and Turk population; also being a naval trade/commercial city, places on Black Sea like the craft centers of Kuban for example had long established commercial relations.
The dagger does resemble Montenegrean bichaqs but this is looks from further East to me.
Its a very complex piece of work as it in its making it incorporates so many techniques, blade is fullered, incised, inlayed, then the grip is encrusted in similar manner of classic later yathagans, while the scabbard is niello.
It makes me also raise an eyebrow looking at a Ottoman Balkan hilt (but not eared), a Black Sea (oriental Antalya) blade and a Caucasian scabbard; still the reality is that they blend in well visually and its a great piece. Are you sure its not anywhere of a Turko-Greek blend, Yannis? Looks like a bashi-bazouk could have something like this, rather than a Czar's cossack, a hajdouk or a pandur

21st May 2006, 05:19 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Three in one This is a vintage knife that combines 3 known (?) areas. Let me describe it. The blade looks like the Trabzon knifes. But it has lot of fullers, some in strange directions and it is heavy engraved both sides and inlaid with silver. Also there is a date 1201 on it. 1787 in Georgian calendar. If the date is true, the scabbard with the Caucasian style niello must be later. But there is also niello in the hilt. And the hilt has the shape of a Montenegro knife! To make the puzzle more interesting there is the engraving of a man holding a kilij and a flintlock rifle. My first thought is that of a Pontic knife. I knew that Pontians used to wear Trabzon knifes and kindjals in early 20th century but I have never seen anything like this before. Any idea is welcome. Attached Images

22nd May 2006, 12:44 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Date is not true! Hallo Yiannis, Very beautiful knife. For me, there is no doubt that the knife is from Montenegro, i attach photos of a similar knife with exactly the same hilt, very characteristic of this area. The blade has much better work than my example, but looks very similar, therefore i think is also made in Montenegro. However i believe is 19th century, and the proof is very obvious. The little guy on the design does handle a kilij, BUT NOT a flintlock! If you see carefully the mechanism is clearly a percusion one, which does not existed in 1787. The percusion was invented after 1820s, i am not sure when, and it took some decades to arrive in the balkans. Therefore i would date this after 1850. Regarding the scabbard there is no doubt that is from trabzon area. Not only the configuration as Ariel says, but also the style of the niello work and most of all the shape of the scabbard which starts narrow get wider and has a long thin finish, is like a micrography of the laz yataghan scabbard! Regards, Eftihis Attached Images

23rd May 2006, 09:01 AM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Similar niello work Hallo, I post photos of a knife which i believe is from the same area. Look at the niello silverwork on the hilt. The style of work looks very similar. It certainly belonged to a Christian because of the Christian date, 1890. I have seen exactly the same style of knife so this must be a local variation somewhere. Note the fish decoration on blade. Regards, Eftihis Attached Images

25th July 2006, 06:45 PM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Did not know about armed people as a greek motiff, thank you Yannis. Attached are photos of some "caucasian" knifes (I would guess surmese ?). Attached Images

25th July 2006, 07:16 PM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Bravo Rivkin. I like to see old threads revive with new data. The scabbards are very very similar. But still there are a lot of differences between the knifes. Monster, hilt, fullers… I don’t know the size of the knife in your picture but for sure mine with 43cm is not a “utility” knife.

21st May 2006, 08:30 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And, on the top of it, the configuration of the scabbard, with it's swollen middle part, is just what is seen with Laz Bicags. I am certain this example is from the Trabzon area. Good one. A keeper.

22nd May 2006, 02:11 PM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Eftihis, possibly you are right about percussion and date. I am not sure about the rest I think the key here are these fullers. Please notice the crazy directions of them. I found nothing in books and sites. I wonder if anyone here has seen similar fullers anywhere.

22nd May 2006, 11:05 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	One of the keys here is niello - very typical caucasian work; indeed, niello of this type has been made in Trabzon; I doubt its production spread as far as Montenegro. Concerning pontic greek affiliation - I don't know about Trabzon, but in Abchazia the policy of local ottoman leadership was to kill or seriously main every greek who spoke or wrote in greek (see "The Reports of the Edinburgh "Missionary Society in 1817-1818 with the supplement of the geographical and historical description of missions in Asian Russia"). For reasons I don't exactly understand ottoman policies in western georgia were more anti-greek than probably anywhere else, while the same logic did not apply to other languages. Therefore I would not expect anything from this area to bear any signature or writing in greek.

23rd May 2006, 12:45 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Rivkin, for me the signature is already there. I didn’t mention it before. In the area I know only Greeks to engrave warriors with their weapons on blades. Like the Hungarians more north. Still, I am possibly wrong.

23rd May 2006, 02:49 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Yannis , I seem to remember similar fullering in a knife presented here for discussion some time back . Let me have a look through the archives ...

25th July 2006, 07:46 PM	#11
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Its interesting to see that a scholar like Astvatsaturian makes no mention of such knives in Caucaus, but I think the niello does look "avaric". To further justify the melange, city of Trabzon have always had a well sized Armenian, Abkhaz and Turk population; also being a naval trade/commercial city, places on Black Sea like the craft centers of Kuban for example had long established commercial relations. The dagger does resemble Montenegrean bichaqs but this is looks from further East to me. Its a very complex piece of work as it in its making it incorporates so many techniques, blade is fullered, incised, inlayed, then the grip is encrusted in similar manner of classic later yathagans, while the scabbard is niello. It makes me also raise an eyebrow looking at a Ottoman Balkan hilt (but not eared), a Black Sea (oriental Antalya) blade and a Caucasian scabbard; still the reality is that they blend in well visually and its a great piece. Are you sure its not anywhere of a Turko-Greek blend, Yannis? Looks like a bashi-bazouk could have something like this, rather than a Czar's cossack, a hajdouk or a pandur Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 25th July 2006 at 08:20 PM.