British dragoon sword

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Eljay,
I am so glad to see you come in on this my friend! It is great to be returning to the study of these early British dragoon swords from all the years ago when I first got them, when we were putting together all the patterns.

I think the bun type pommel was one of the ones also seen with this distinct 'pommel ring' which seems to have paralleled the method of guard attachment to top of grip below pommel.

As the typical dragoon swords from c. 1707 had been basket hilts, and these were being produced by various cutlers usually using Solingen import blades, it would seem likely that this characteristic feature would be the inclination of many. As Jeffries , we know was producing basket hilts in 1759 when the light dragoon system was being initiated, and it seems plausible that he may have employed this ring type feature in his 'other' hilts for the new light units.

We have established that the 15th, the first unit, had chosen a recurved guard hilt favoring certain hunting hanger types of the period, but those for the subsequent units, the 16th and 17th are not clear at this point.

Thank you again for entering here, as your knowledge on British swords is unparalleled and I really look forward to your insights!!!!!

You're right on the white paint!!!!! That the ?????? Auugghh!

All the best, Godspeed and stay safe over there,
Jim

[E.B. Erickson]

Found some photos of a dragoon in my collection that fits this thread.

Brass hilt, slotted guard, the knucklebow engraved with a rack(?) number. Original sharkskin grip bound with a single wire rope. Some damage to the grip right above the lower ferrule.

In the overall photo this looks proportioned like a hanger, but it's no hanger! The blade is 34" long, about 1.5" wide, and the hilt is 8" from grip base to capstan.

[kronckew]

By coincidence, the film 'The Patriot' was playing the other day, I looked carefully at the bad guy's sword. Col. Tavington and his dragoons were loosely based on Col. Banastre Tarllton, who was NOT the demon portrayed in the film (the murder of civilans in the church, etc. never happened). Hard to believe it was released 20 years ago.

If you look carefully at Tavington's sword you can see it is indeed a 4 slot cylindrical grip curved sabre like the one being discussed here, though presumably an officers model as the grip is ivory*. I managed to track down the company that made the sword, royal swordsmiths here in the UK, photo attached. Oil painting of the real Col. - later General - Tarlton as below. The film's historical accuracy is questionable at best, but someone got the swords fairly accurately.

*- You can see the ivory grip in the scene at Cornwallis' HQ as Mel was accosted by Tavington as Mel departed.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

By coincidence, the film 'The Patriot' was playing the other day, I looked carefully at the bad guy's sword. Col. Tavington and his dragoons were loosely based on Col. Banastre Tarllton, who was NOT the demon portrayed in the film (the murder of civilans in the church, etc. never happened). Hard to believe it was released 20 years ago.

If you look carefully at Tavington's sword you can see it is indeed a 4 slot cylindrical grip curved sabre like the one being discussed here, though presumably an officers model as the grip is ivory*. I managed to track down the company that made the sword, royal swordsmiths here in the UK, photo attached. Oil painting of the real Col. - later General - Tarlton as below. The film's historical accuracy is questionable at best, but someone got the swords fairly accurately.

*- You can see the ivory grip in the scene at Cornwallis' HQ as Mel was accosted by Tavington as Mel departed.

Thats great Wayne, you found the makers of the sword used by 'Tavington' (good play on the name) in the movie!!! One always wonders how accurate these movie weapons were, and you done gone and found out!!!

It is pretty impressive that they kept historical accuracy in mind with the weaponry, though the script writers followed their own need for the driving force in the plot, the revenge thing etc.
I agree its necessary I suppose to create a story line, but I really wish that scene was not in the movie, other than that it was a great film.

Actually I think there was far more inconsistency in war circumstances than anyone can imagine, and weapons were far more 'ersatz' than standard.

Great insights and research, thank you!!

[kronckew]

You're welcome!

As we dusicussed earlier, in another thread, I have a Revolutionary war American Dragoon sword repurposed from a French Dragoon one of the period that had the side bars removed leaving the 4 slot hand-guard part... Would have suited Mel's Left handed French Grenadier companion.

link: American or British?

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting example Wayne! and now I wonder more on the 'four slot' guard, as I continue always wondering more on the development of these features and elements in sword hilts.
Here I go back to the blade form on many of the straight blade dragoon types and and on my example (OP) which has a rather 'clipped' point, as mentioned shown in Seifert (1962) as a 'pandour' point.

It is of course well known that the British cavalry was profoundly influenced by Hungarian cavalry and weapons (via the French where there were numbers of these forces often present) in the mid 18th century. The exploits of the dreaded pandours had become well known, and it would seem these curiously pointed blades had become applied to some blades used on these British swords.

The point on mine is of course not as dramatic as in the illustration, nor the other example, but the illustration does seem to give the impression the points of these swords were notably contrary to those usually seen.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Found some photos of a dragoon in my collection that fits this thread.

Brass hilt, slotted guard, the knucklebow engraved with a rack(?) number. Original sharkskin grip bound with a single wire rope. Some damage to the grip right above the lower ferrule.

In the overall photo this looks proportioned like a hanger, but it's no hanger! The blade is 34" long, about 1.5" wide, and the hilt is 8" from grip base to capstan.

Thanks Eljay,
This is useful info as to the clear disparities with hanger hilts or their types found with obviously much larger dragoon blades. Blades were a highly trafficked commodity, while hilts with favored designs were not as readily handy. Clearly there are cases of either heirloom or presently owned swords which were either exchanged or times when someone entered another unit where type of sword might be different.
As in when a cavalryman went to infantry or flank unit or vise versa.

Also, while the colonists were 'American' colonists, they were still British. Hilt components were often a commodity produced by vendors abroad as much as in the colonies, and especially pommels were often acquired in lots by cutlers. It seems reasonable that cutlers would also mount either hanger blades or dragoon blades as specified by clients.