Caravaggio - paintings of armor and edged weapons 1590s-1610

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, your eloquence and knowledge on these subjects is amazing and I thank you as well as Shayde, for really bringing this topic to life here! While I have never formally studied art or its history, I know well the incredible intrigue, inuendo and symbolism with which it is typically deeply imbued, which is really fascinating when combined with study of arms and material culture.

I am familiar with the last painting of the St.Michael which as noted appears in "Armi Bianche Italiene', and I had thought of these cutlass type sabers as 'storta', a probably more collective term, and wonder if you might say more on that description.

As noted, it seems that art was pretty much typically allegorical, especially in Biblical themes, but well laced with elements of the artists own life and familiarities. I think this was best illustrated for relative laymen (as myself with art) in showing how symbolism in art cryptically held profound secrrets in so many cases.

While we might believe that Carvaggio suffered the dreaded lead poisoning which plagued so many artists (though it was known of course in many other aspects in these times) it seems he was well aware of the lighter and more beautiful subjects as well.

Ironically, this topic somewhat parallels the strange case of "Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde", Stevensons classic on the duality of man, and oddly seems quite pertinant here.

Thank you for detailing also some of the characteristics of these Italian swords and blades. I often wondered about the deep channeling on these blades, and the high polish factor is also most interesting.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am familiar with the last painting of the St.Michael which as noted appears in "Armi Bianche Italiene', and I had thought of these cutlass type sabers as 'storta', a probably more collective term, and wonder if you might say more on that description.

.

Thanks, Jim.

The literature in Italian uses both storta and coltellacio to describe these weapons. I believe that the former is a Venetian dialectical term. In the book Armi e Armature Lombarde (ed. Boccia, Rossi, Morin, 1980) both names are used to identify very similar swords on the same page!

You find multiplicities of terms for weapons elsewhere in the literature, most notably spada da lato / striscia in reference to rapiers. The latter term is most strictly applied to especially narrow blades, although some authors and many auction cataloguers are looser in their usage. Italian can be quite precise in classifying weapons types, the trouble is that the country being a collection of states (and distinct subcultures) until the last century means strong dialectical differences can muddy the waters.

One reason for ethnographic arms collectors to also be mindful of this is that terminology can be complicated in other regions which use many similar weapons but which have marked linguistic and cultural differences which are sharpened by physical isolation and limited access to formal education in a common culture. Examples can include India, China, and the great SE Asian archipelagos - Malay and Philippine.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While we might believe that Carvaggio suffered the dreaded lead poisoning which plagued so many artists (though it was known of course in many other aspects in these times) it seems he was well aware of the lighter and more beautiful subjects as well.
.

Jim, did you know that Ludwig van Beethoven is also believed to have died of lead poisoning? A sample of his hair, tested some years back, revealed a high lead content. His bio indicated that he loved his wine, often drank 1 or more bottles daily. At that time in Germany, lead was often used as a bottle stopper in lieu of corks. Also, a lot of beverages were consumed from pewter cups especially in northern Europe, and in many places on the Continent, ceramics were lead-glazed as well. So drinking your OJ out of one of those cups every morning for years and years could do you in as well!

When I was in grad school, my prof of Roman history held a discussion of the social causes for the Empire's decline. One theory, advanced in the 1970s, was that lead poisoning had addled too many brains! Some students dismissed this as the ruminations of an over-imaginative plumber, but just think: the Romans, being prolific hydraulic engineers, build large networks of aqueducts and urban piping to connect them to public baths, drinking fountains, and high class houses. Guess what the pipes were made of, and what lining was used in the aqueducts to minimize leakage? And where our term "plumbing" comes from?

In ancient Rome and premodern Italy, lead was a common adulterant to cheap wine. The Latin adjective plumbeus can denote "cheap" and was specifically applied to cut-rate vino.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Philip, great explanation and that makes perfect sense. We are all familiar with the name game with different terms used for the same type weapon, but typically think of it more commonly with ethnographic weapons, than in European context. I forget about the dialectic differences.
I recall once, many years ago (MANY) trying to find a Swiss dictionary bonk!

Thats really weird about Beethoven, obviously the issue of deafness is well known, but had not heard of the lead poisoning matter. The presence of lead in pipes of course is well known as noted with Latin term 'plumbum' for lead (Pb), but had not heard of it used in cheap wine (do ya have that in a 55 gallon drum?).

[shayde78]

Thank you Philip and Jim for these additional insights. The rich allegorical nature of art is a fascinating study, and is often reflected in the arms we collect. For preliterate communities, and those with a small literate class (as much of the world was until very recently) symbolism was the best way to communicate thru visual forms. Understanding the symbolic language can go a long way to interpreting the culture from which an item originates. There is added utility to our hobby when one considers the wealth of symbols that were engraved, embossed, forged, and chiseled in the steel in which we are so often in pursuit.

Also, I think your conversation hints at the fact that the line between genius and (what we call) madness is often very thin and nebulous. Is this because only madness can create something new? Is it because seeing the world in a new way causes a distance between the visionary and others (Allegory of the Cave)? Is it simply because once someone sees what others cannot, or refuse to see, they simply never feel at home in society any longer? OR, is it simply madness caused by lead. I think the fact that many of our modern artists in all media (music, paint, metal, words) are not exposed to lead, but exhibit many of the same mercurial temperaments speaks to environmental toxins as being merely a concurrent factor, perhaps exacerbating, but not truly causal.

Regardless, without some 'madmen', I'm not sure we'd have the swept hilt, patterned Damascus, Maximillian armor, and the like. Frankly, the meticulous alchemy involved in creating a sound blade would drive most of us mad if operating under the conditions of a smith prior to the 1800s!

I am well pleased that these images have sparked some discussion. Thank you for receiving them with interest

[Philip]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thank you Philip and Jim for these additional insights.

... is it simply madness caused by lead. I think the fact that many of our modern artists in all media (music, paint, metal, words) are not exposed to lead, but exhibit many of the same mercurial temperaments speaks to environmental toxins as being merely a concurrent factor, perhaps exacerbating, but not truly causal.

You're most welcome.

Isn't it wonderful that some modern artists (am thinking of rock stars and the like) have more exciting things than lead to tweak their brains with? Get high, set the world on fire, and go out in a blaze of glory at a young age. Il Caravaggio's model has appeal to some folks centuries later.

[Jim McDougall]

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody
has seen;
and thinking what nobody else has thought"
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy


It does seem that like love vs hate, the line between genius and madness can be extremely thin and hard to determine. As we have recognized, with notable figures in the arts and other areas, there have been environmental exposures such as lead and mercury poisoning which might account for their actions and often demise.

However, we wonder why they would be so much more effected than the average person of the time, if indeed they were. Surely not every artist was adversely effected as they all used lead based paint. However, possibly certain artists had peculiar quirks or habits, such as wetting their brush in their mouth etc. Possibly they were exposed to other sources of the same noxious elements, adding to a 'perfect storm' in the exposure.

I think rather than a universal or collective assertion that situations like lead poisoning be the cause of behavioral dysfunction as suggested with Caravaggio ( aggressive behavior is a symptom).....we must consider it is likely to be a complicating factor. It seems that in studies of bio-history of notable historical figures, the presence of issues such as temporal lobe epilepsy and other psychological factors seemed in ways to elevate the potential for 'greatness', if not notoriety.

It seems to me the term 'mad' is much overused and often inappropriately to note persons who are quirky or obsessed in certain areas, or sometimes many, in eclectic interests. People of intellect are often, possibly even almost typically, somewhat socially inept.

It has been my impression that duelists and brawlers were often regarded in their hubris as romantic and exciting figures, much as the famed gunfighters (then shootists) of the wild west, and much celebrated.

Caravaggio probably was not entirely averse to this reputation, and as art is as noted, often deeply allegorical, these nuances such as discussed are probably more in that regard than result of derangement caused by lead poisoning in specific.

The forensic discovery of lead in his remains led to the suggestion of lead poisoning, however there were numerous other mitigating factors present or suggested, certain multiple wounds which may have developed complications over time not withstanding.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody
has seen;
and thinking what nobody else has thought"
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy



However, we wonder why they would be so much more effected than the average person of the time, if indeed they were. Surely not every artist was adversely effected as they all used lead based paint. However, possibly certain artists had peculiar quirks or habits, such as wetting their brush in their mouth etc. Possibly they were exposed to other sources of the same noxious elements, adding to a 'perfect storm' in the exposure.

It seems to me the term 'mad' is much overused and often inappropriately to note persons who are quirky or obsessed in certain areas, or sometimes many, in eclectic interests. People of intellect are often, possibly even almost typically, somewhat socially inept.

It has been my impression that duelists and brawlers were often regarded in their hubris as romantic and exciting figures, much as the famed gunfighters (then shootists) of the wild west, and much celebrated.

Caravaggio probably was not entirely averse to this reputation, and as art is as noted, often deeply allegorical, these nuances such as discussed are probably more in that regard than result of derangement caused by lead poisoning in specific.

Jim, you raise some very valid and quite interesting points!

1. Regarding paint chemistry, I'm not at all certain how many artists' pigments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance contained lead. Also considering the differences in techniques required different compositions. For instance, there were watercolors, tempera (based on egg white), oils, etc. Applied to various bases (wood, various fabrics, leather, and fresh plaster). For architectural pigments, I read somewhere that milk-based paints were popular because they were cheap considering the large areas to be covered; these were used into the 19th cent. and there is at least one company still making bovine pigment for historical restoration purposes -- and it's no longer an economy priced product.

2. Licking of brushes -- makes some sense with watercolor or tempera, but sounds mighty unpleasant with oil paints! Eesh!

3. Madness, like insanity, are common vernacular and literary terms but have not been part of the legal or medical vocabulary for donkey years. Human behavior is affected by a lot of factors -- glandular and cerebral function and chemistry are complex issues.

4. Celebrated heroes of the past -- they become more heroic and less dastardly as they recede into the historic past, and after novelists and Hollywood have their say!

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Philip!
I had not thought of that, artists palettes' pigments used various minerals for colors, with various binders such as gum arabic, and egg based tempera etc.
It would seem that the white pigment was the real culprit for lead, and later zinc oxide was one of the substitutes as the white lead was of course noxious.

It seems oil became popular in Europe around late 15th into 16th c. despite having been known in other cultures much earlier even into ancient times.

On the subject matter of the 'head' theme with David holding the head of Goliath, it seems that that subject was in a painting by Giorgiones c.1500 (he died 1510) so much before Caravaggio in latter 16th c. While the subject matter seems grim, the Giorgiones held the same effect, so it appears to have been part of the Biblical 'theme'.

Back to the paints, it would seem, as you well note, the tightening of the bristles of the brush by mouth would not be 'tasteful' and in the case of oils or especially any white pigment simply not likely. Therefore the plausibility for lead poisoning presumed from artists paint seems notably diminished for Caravaggio and probably other artists in same degree.

Other sources such as the wine circumstance, or exposure in other environmental circumstances are more likely for consideration.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It would seem that the white pigment was the real culprit for lead, and later zinc oxide was one of the substitutes as the white lead was of course noxious.

Other sources such as the wine circumstance, or exposure in other environmental circumstances are more likely for consideration.

Jim, you might also want to know that white lead, until the last century, was widely used in many places for architectural and maritime applications. It was considered efficacious in protecting the joints of timber framing against rot. During my college years I worked part time for a local museum restoring a 19th cent. iron-hulled four-master, which of course had wooden decks, bulkheads, rails, and other elements of the superstructure and rigging. We occasionally had to apply white lead to areas such as the mating surfaces between wood and wrought iron. And of course warned by the foreman to wear gloves and goggles, and keep fingers away from our faces! The stuff had the consistency of thick yogurt.

Another protective, red lead, was painted onto exposed iron as a primer because of its rust-proofing qualities.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On the subject matter of the 'head' theme with David holding the head of Goliath, it seems that that subject was in a painting by Giorgiones c.1500 (he died 1510) so much before Caravaggio in latter 16th c. While the subject matter seems grim, the Giorgiones held the same effect, so it appears to have been part of the Biblical 'theme'.

.

In this thread we see two paintings based on Biblical narratives, and featuring beheadings. It is interesting to note one thing in common, besides them featuring heroic figures in the Jewish pantheon. In both cases, the bad guys were done in WITH THEIR OWN SWORDS. Very allegorical -- the evil-doer meeting his end with his own implement of oppression and destruction.

Note that David used a blade to actually finish off Goliath:

"So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, striking down the Philistine...there was no sword in David's hand. Then David ran and stood over the Philistine; he grasped his sword, drew it out of its sheath, and killed him, then cut off his head with it." ( 1 Samuel 17.50-51 )

Judith's killing of the Assyrian general Holofernes is an inspiration to Israeli commandos today. Captured by the Assyrians, she wrangled an invite to the general's banquet, and having had some after-dinner drinks with him in his tent, waited for him to fall asleep. Upon which she...

"...went up to the bedpost near Holofernes' head, and took down his sword that hung there. She came close to his bed, took hold of the hair of his head...then she struck his neck twice with all her might, and cut off his head. ... Soon after she went out and gave Holofernes' head to her maid, who placed it in her food bag." (Judith, 13.6-10)

Just like in the painting!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Another protective, red lead, was painted onto exposed iron as a primer because of its rust-proofing qualities.

Filipe, you must be referring to what we call it over here "zarcão" (from the Arab zarkún = fire colour). I used to sell it in retail when i worked in an ironmonger when i was a kid; heavy stuff. And i remember seen my father's workers applying it as a primer to house gates.

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by fernando

Filipe, you must be referring to what we call it over here "zarcão" (from the Arab zarkún = fire colour). I used to sell it in retail when i worked in an ironmonger when i was a kid; heavy stuff. And i remember seen my father's workers applying it as a primer to house gates.

I live near the ocean and it used to be used extensively at the dockyards to protect against the corrosive effects of salt water. I have an empty bucket somewhere that still says "Red Lead". I'll have to fish it out and post a picture here.
Also, not from personal experience, but I picked up over the years that lead has a sweet taste and this is why children eating paint chips has been a problem in homes with lead paint. Probably why it was added to cheap wine and why an artist might find themselves dipping their brush in their mouth from time to time.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by shayde78

I live near the ocean and it used to be used extensively at the dockyards to protect against the corrosive effects of salt water. I have an empty bucket somewhere that still says "Red Lead". I'll have to fish it out and post a picture here.
Also, not from personal experience, but I picked up over the years that lead has a sweet taste and this is why children eating paint chips has been a problem in homes with lead paint. Probably why it was added to cheap wine and why an artist might find themselves dipping their brush in their mouth from time to time.

OK, fish it out for a photo op but for goodness' sake don't go fishing near those dockyards! Or if you do, don't eat the fish you catch! We'd like to see you contributing great threads for discussion for many years to come.

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by Philip

OK, fish it out for a photo op but for goodness' sake don't go fishing near those dockyards! Or if you do, don't eat the fish you catch! We'd like to see you contributing great threads for discussion for many years to come.

50 miles south of the mouth of the Hudson River - there's more to be worried about in the water than some mere lead! That said, the seafood here is top notch. Anyway, I found the old empty bucket of Red Lead (official Dutch Boy product). A small 2 gallon bucket (maybe 3 gallons, but I don't think so) weighed 50lbs, so you can see how heavy this stuff was!

[gp]

although Kant tells us one can not dispute 'bout taste,
I think Caravaggio's Judith is not so strong compared to 'the female Caravaggio' ( Artemisia)

if you have a look at the first by Michelangelo Merisi AKA Caravaggio and the next 2 by Artemisia Gentileschi

[gp]

but to make it easier... a few more Judith's from around the same period.
Looks like Judy had more swords than most of you lads....☺☼☺

Paintings are by Botticeli, Jan de Bray, Valentin de Boulogne, Cornelisz Vermeyen, Guido Cagnacci, Bartelomeo Manfredi, David Teniers the Younger and a few more ...

Judy remains a very popular theme till today

[Philip]

Originally Posted by gp

but to make it easier... a few more Judith's from around the same period.
Looks like Judy had more swords than most of you lads....☺☼☺

Paintings are by Botticeli, Jan de Bray, Valentin de Boulogne, Cornelisz Vermeyen, Guido Cagnacci, Bartelomeo Manfredi, David Teniers the Younger and a few more ...

Judy remains a very popular theme till today

Of all the "action shots", the one showing Judy with sword upraised in a two handed grip seems to follow the Biblical narrative most closely, which as quoted previously mentions that she took two whacks at the guy with all her might. That painting also depicts Holofernes as one might expect him to appear, passed out after an evening of serious wining and dining.

[shayde78]

Thanks gp for mentioning Artemisia. She is a fascinating figure, and one that the patriarchy of art history doesn't give fair credit. There is a great study there about how the Saints and Biblical characters would resonate with the general public in ways we cannot fully appreciate from our modern perspective. How many young women identified directly with the story of Judith, and saw her as a kind of hero. Few, however, could express the scene as vividly as Artemisia. Thanks again for mentioning her so I could research her biography and catalogue of works.

[gp]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thanks gp for mentioning Artemisia. She is a fascinating figure, and one that the patriarchy of art history doesn't give fair credit. There is a great study there about how the Saints and Biblical characters would resonate with the general public in ways we cannot fully appreciate from our modern perspective. How many young women identified directly with the story of Judith, and saw her as a kind of hero. Few, however, could express the scene as vividly as Artemisia. Thanks again for mentioning her so I could research her biography and catalogue of works.

you're welcome !

Not only a most talented but also a very intriging and interesting woman I have to say as a (not so young anymore☺) male
and also think her to be a hero!

additional:

a very interesting documentary film is made by Ellen Weissbrod :

https://www.humanarts.org/projects.p...oman-like-that

and I can recommend her biography by Mary D. Garrard "The Image of the Female Hero in Italian Baroque "
FYI: I spend an hour watching & admiring the painting in the Palazzo Pitti, Florence: a beautiful but very intimidating paiting.
Hence send my wife and daughter to the juwelry department in the Palazzo Pitti not to give them any mischievous thoughts, owning a sharp yataghan at home ....☺☺☺

BR

Gunar

[gp]

Originally Posted by Philip

Of all the "action shots", the one showing Judy with sword upraised in a two handed grip seems to follow the Biblical narrative most closely, which as quoted previously mentions that she took two whacks at the guy with all her might. That painting also depicts Holofernes as one might expect him to appear, passed out after an evening of serious wining and dining.

if this is the painting, it's by Jan de Bray made in 1659,
presently in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam NL

[Philip]

Originally Posted by gp

if this is the painting, it's by Jan de Bray made in 1659,
presently in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam NL

Yes this is the one I was referring to. Thanks for identifying artist and date.