Tombak Opinions Wanted

[nechesh]

Well Alan, as you know, i am merely a student of the keris, but i know even less about tombak. Could you tell us what characteristics about this tombak are non-typical to Javanese origin. It might help Doecon's understanding of why you hesitate to classify this one and it would probably help my understanding of tombaks as well.
Personally i think anyone would be somewhat foolish to claim they can make a positive ID of keris and tombaks based on a few photos viewed on the internet. Photos, even apparently good ones, can easily mislead as to tone, hue and color and give no indication of weight or feel.

[Nagawarrior]

Thank you for your input here Alan. I didn't want to print your full reply to me without your permission so I just thanked you when I started this thread. I hope I haven't committed a faux pas.
I still would like to know where I can obtain some of the arsenic trioxide for staining here in California. Can any one help with that? I find great pleasure in hands on care of items in my collection and really want to try to stain myself. I probably wouldn't start with this Tombak. Rather as suggested, start with a low grade Keris I have so I may learn. I have used the method suggested by Alan in the past, but had to resort to Radio Shack etchant for the acid. This does not produce the pleasing look I want. It works well on other swords I might say.
Thanks to all here for your replies. They are much appreciated

[doecon]

Just a few notes regarding some above;

No positive ID given, just guesswork here from my site. Its obvious that an ID would require more info/better pics. As mentioned I have no idea how the ferule is forged, no pics no info.

Neshech;
I noticed you mentioned that "warangan" isn't for protection; actually both the "acid" bath and the final oil ritual are in some way. Acid bathing stops or limits the oxidation. just for the record

Naga;
I was under the impression that your Radio Shack was used to replace the arsenic substance (I had no idea you ment the acid). For the acid itself you can use lime. (locally they use the small green ones). This acid is used in the first step, as in cleaning your tombak. Once fully done (might take days) you will have a nice "white" tombak..then you start "staining" . Just google "warangan", you find some pretty good descriptions of the process in the first hits.

I'll try to dig up some uncleaned (old) blades as "practising material" and will post them for you in the swap forum if needed. But please keep in mind that some of us (including myself) have some kind of respect for these sharp old things, so please do handle your blades likewise.

[Nagawarrior]

Originally Posted by doecon

Naga;
I was under the impression that your Radio Shack was used to replace the arsenic substance (I had no idea you ment the acid). For the acid itself you can use lime. (locally they use the small green ones). This acid is used in the first step, as in cleaning your tombak. Once fully done (might take days) you will have a nice "white" tombak..then you start "staining" . Just google "warangan", you find some pretty good descriptions of the process in the first hits.

I'll try to dig up some uncleaned (old) blades as "practising material" and will post them for you in the swap forum if needed. But please keep in mind that some of us (including myself) have some kind of respect for these sharp old things, so please do handle your blades likewise.

Yes doecon, the Radio Shack etchant is used in place of the arsenic mixed with lime juice. I use pinapple juice and soak the blade and rub with a tooth brush to clean. Finally I use the etchant to bring out the pamor. I have a complete instructions, I believe they were posted on this forum in the past. I just substitue the arsenic with etchant. It really doesn't work very well on Keris. I've had great results on other types of swords.

I appreciate the reminder of the great reverence that one should have for these important cultural objects. I'm trying my best to show respect by wanting to properly care for them and learn as much as possible from this forum. Sometimes I feel I'm a bit clumsy in this process. I hope no one feels I have acted with any disrespect. If so I certainly apologize.

[nechesh]

Doecon, my understanding is that what is known as warangan is not the acid bath, but the mixture of arsenic and lime that is used for staining the keris after thye acid bath. Certainly if one is removing rust in the acid bath step they are helping to "protect" their keris from being eaten away by rust by stopping present oxidation. The warangan blackens the iron, therefore raising the pamor. It's main purpose seems to be aesthetic to me though it may help reduce rust in the future. Keris oil, on the other hand will definitely help protect a keris from future oxidation. It does, of course, have ritual purpose as well.
The Radio Shack etchant which Naga speaks of is indeed an acid etchant, but it doesn't "whiten" the blade like a traditional acid bath will, but darkens the iron like warangan does. As Naga points out, it works well with some swords, but the color it produces is not the same as warangan and therefore not correct for keris. If Naga is familar with the methods Mr. Maisey has suggested then he probably doesn't need to do a google search (though i guess you can't have too much information). I have been staining keris with this method for 2 yrs. now and i am more successful every time. Though i am glad that i started out on some low grade damaged blades. Believe me, even these i worked with much care and respect and left them in much better shape than i found them in. Your implication that any of us would treat these blades with disrespect, or that you somehow know better about such things is assuming to say the least.
BTW, in regards to positive ID, my statement was a response to Alan's remark that he wasn't "good enough" to make a positive ID with the given information. I suppose Alan found it necessary to explain his caution after your somewhat sarcastic remark that you "hardly dare to comment since Alan has given an opinion already" . I in no way implied that YOU had made such an ID nor was i trying to say that YOU were somehow being foolish. Not sure why you are being defensive on this issue but i would appreciate it if you would not project on my statements.

[A. G. Maisey]

No Stephen, no problem with the name.

David, I didn`t say that there were non-typical characteristics, I said there were characteristics that made it difficult for me to identify as Javanese.

The overall look and proportion don`t click into a tangguh slot, the ada-ada is very thickly ridged, the material looks a bit porous but this might just be excessive use of acid in cleaning, the metuk---this will be found to be mechanically attached, not forged as one with the blade--- the metuk could possibly fit a couple of classifications, but it seems to combine characteristics from at least two different classifications, possibly three. It might be Javanese, but without it in my hand, I`m not prepared to say. Look, this is not a top level, court quality tombak:- its a nice old fairly middle of the road example. Tangguh was never intended to apply to every piece of wesi aji under heaven, and the further away you get from court standards, the more difficult it gets to fit any wesi aji into a tangguh slot. Tombak are much, much more difficult to classify than keris at any time, and when you get a few pics of something that might or might not be Javanese, its just too hard to be positive about anything. In the hand it may be possible to look at different angles, or examine the texture under a loupe, or gauge the weight, or feel the texture, but from photos I`m afraid its beyond me. Now, if I were to take a punt and say---yeah, OK , probably Javanese---the next question is---oh, its Javanese is it? How old? What tangguh?--- my answer---I don`t know---well how can you say its Javanese?

Actually, my gut feeling is that this tombak could be Balinese.
But don`t hold me to it---that is just a gut feeling, based on a photograph.

As far as staining goes, why not start with this tombak?
I personally think it would be a good thing to start with.
At least its got good clear pamor that you can be fairly confident will show up OK after staining. A lot of old blades, especially old junky ones just show grey and grey with low definition, and a beginner doesn`t know if he`s on the right track or not.
Give it a good scrub up with hot water and dishwash detergent, a light bath in pineapple juice,rinse off,dry, and go right to it, as long as you can get the arsenic, and that might be the hardest part.
One thing is certain:- you cannot do it any harm. If it turns out too dark, you just clean it off with bonami or some other powder sink cleaner--ajax maybe---and try again. In Jawa we use abu gosok---an ash used to polish pans--- and coconut husk, but ajax and steel wool works just as well. I`ve been playing around with cleaning and staining for about 45 years now, I`ve been taught several different methods and have developed a couple of my own. There is no magical secret attached to blade staining, its just patience and experience, and if you get it wrong, clean it off and try again.You definitely cannot do any damage to the blade if you tackle the job correctly.

[doecon]

Thanks Neshech for your explanation, I wasn't in defense, maybe just a bit short in my answer before. Just wanted to repeat that I made a guess only, for the record (IMO the only thing we can do, even upon studying the item from nearby, although the guess might become more better

I honestly respect Alans opinion and I had no intend to be sarcastic, I pretty much meant what it said and the quote should include the "smiley". But for reasons of clarification; If somebody posts an item for ID but mentions that a forum member has already established some indication, then this member (Alan) should have a say first.

Regarding the cleaning itself, I think you should be a bit careful with the steelwool on your blades. Some might prefer a careful start to remove dirt and rust, by using softer material. A piece of wood (softer then steel) is a good and safe scrubber. But as I mentioned before, its your blade, so have fun.

In case you still need some practice material, I brought 3 very good “practice” blades. I will post them in the swap section tomorrow.

[nechesh]

In regards to steel wool there are many grades of courseness. Personally i would only use the finest grade which is #0000. There is very little chance of scratching or otherwise damaging the surface of a blade with this stuff even when working with it quite vigorously. In essence it is a "safe scrubber".

[doecon]

Neshech, I never tried, but you sound convincing enough. Just hope I can find that fine grade around here.

Since we are going slightly off topic I want to do a final effort for IP to give him some (very uneducated) clues about his item.

My main focus is the size of the bottom of the ferule for a first indication. It’s (again in my humble opinion) mostly seen in heavier and larger spears, which makes sense if you imagine the force used with these things (Some were over 2.5 meters long). These spears are called landeyan (I believe) and indeed used in Java and Madura.

(Always wondered if the name could come from the dutch, langejan=Long John; no prove though but the period seems to match).

The dapur is in my opinion common for java. The higher section in the center has the function of removing the spear more quickly after contact with its target and it will create more damage. (The broader base helps to increase the “stopping” power). There is a kind of dapur originally containing holes, but I forget the name ) Holes look a bit like made in later stage. If they were not then Java comes to mind again. As mentioned the are probably for decoration purposes, since these spears were used in (keratin) parades as well. (they still do have those parades)

Pamor doesn’t have the "madura" feel, the small lines on the side of the blade are more seen in java pieces ...it doesn’t really match from what I see from Madura.

Dating is a rough quess, but I placed it somewhere between the arrival of the Dutch and from the looks of the spear not younger then 200 yrs. Markings of numerous cleanings would have had its marks not only in the ada-ada area but on the side as well. I have no specific comment on quality, since its obvious not created for royal ceremonies. However from what I see it looks like it has been actually used (which is not really that surprising). 2 smaller cuts on the side and traces of scars in the center, so I would argue that its not well made. From the “wear” around the border, the well shaped “ferule” I would call it good quality.

There is some older drawings from actual spearfights (maybe on the web as well), could maybe give you some clues as well.

Regarding the later added hilt, I agree that its probably some mark. Maybe you can find details with the KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines), since they were the first and for long time single airmail provider in Indonesia.

General disclaimer : I’m just an amateur in this area, but I hope it has been of some help.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the metuk---this will be found to be mechanically attached, not forged as one with the blade--- the metuk could possibly fit a couple of classifications, but it seems to combine characteristics from at least two different classifications, possibly three. It might be Javanese, but without it in my hand, I`m not prepared to say. Look, this is not a top level, court quality tombak:- its a nice old fairly middle of the road example.

I hate busting in the middle here....

Can anyone explain if the metuk being attached or forged as one piece has anything to do with the age or quality of the tombak? Thanks.

[Henk]

Good job Tim!!

The staining can be preserved by oiling the blade. It will hold for years when you oil the blade from time to time.