Mace from Bukhara.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 09:04 AM

Recently, thanks to the help of one of my good friends from this forum, I bought this Bukhara mace for my collection.
Does anyone have similar items in their collections?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd October 2019, 12:30 PM

Elgood, Robert, ed., Islamic Arms and Armour, Scolar Press 1979. There is an article on the subject. Flindt, Torben W.: Some Nineteenth-Century Arms from Bukhara.
The David Collection. Islamic Arms and Armour from Private Danish Collections. Pp. 128-129.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 12:54 PM

Oh yeah. Thank you. I have this book and this article. You correctly noted that my mace is from this private collection and was published in the article about which you wrote. I know it

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd October 2019, 01:40 PM

I dont know if the mace you have is the same as the one mentioned/shown in Torben W. Flindt's article. Maybe it is - you will have to be the judge.
I have had the mace in my hands, and also saw it when it was exhibited at The David Collection - but it is many years ago.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 01:41 PM

I think it's enough to compare the photo.

Kubur · 2nd October 2019, 03:12 PM

Question: have you seen any engraving or ancient document showing Bukharan men with this mace? I think many of these maces so-called bukhara maces are not from Bukhara.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd October 2019, 04:26 PM

Mahratt, when you compare the marks on the stone head, to the ones in Toben's article, it does seem to be the same mace.
Funny to see the mace again after so many years. Congratulations:-).

mross · 2nd October 2019, 07:25 PM

Yep, Those pic leave no doubt. Rotate yours about a quarter turn clockwise and the markings line up exactly.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Mahratt, when you compare the marks on the stone head, to the ones in Toben's article, it does seem to be the same mace.
Funny to see the mace again after so many years. Congratulations:-).

Jens, thanks

Yes, the world of collectors is not very large.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Question: have you seen any engraving or ancient document showing Bukharan men with this mace? I think many of these maces so-called bukhara maces are not from Bukhara.

Kubur, this is a very good question.
Unfortunately I have not seen any images Bukharan men with this mace. I know only one document of the late 19th century, which describes a diplomatic reception at the Emir of Bukhara. This document mentions important dignitaries who had richly decorated axes and maces in their hands.
I know for sure that my mace and maces, which are kept in Denmark in private collections and an ethnographic museum, were brought from Bukhara by Danish officer and ethnographer Ole Olufsen in the late 19th century. Most of these maces are decorated in a style typical of Bukhra. These "Danish" maces can be called "standart".
It is logical to assume that maces similar to these "standart Bukhara maces" also originate from Bukhara.

The lack of images of Bukhara men with such maces can hardly be considered a serious argument ... For example, until recently, images of Bukhara men with Bukhara shashka were not known. Only one image - a picture of the artist Vereshchagin. But we know a lot of Bukhara shashkas, both in museums and in private collections.

Kubur · 2nd October 2019, 09:36 PM

I asked that because there is another country where they use silver and turquoise and they have maces also... I wonder if one member knows which country I'm talking about...

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 09:47 PM

I suspect that you mean Iraq’s “swamp arabs" or Kurds. Although, of course, I could be wrong and you thought about another country.

Kubur · 2nd October 2019, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I suspect that you mean Iraq’s “swamp arabs" or Kurds. Although, of course, I could be wrong and you thought about another country.

You are very very very good Mahratt
Yes indeed I'm thinking about Iraq.

mahratt · 2nd October 2019, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

You are very very very good Mahratt
Yes indeed I'm thinking about Iraq.

Thanks, Kubur.
It seems to me that there are a number of serious "But":
1) I can’t recall photos men from Iraq with such maces.
2) I can’t remember similar maces in museums that would be attributed to Iraq
3) if we assume that these maces come from Iraq, it is strange that Olufsen brought several of these maces from Bukhara

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

On the other hand, I have not seen a single well-known publication about such maces, except for all of us known article by Torben Flindt.
This is rather strange, since logically such maces were supposed to get into Russia as trophies, and not just to Denmark ... Although, maybe they are in some small provincial museums and are waiting for the researcher.

Ren Ren · 2nd October 2019, 10:44 PM

It does not surprise me that Bukhara maces are similar to objects from other countries. The Bukhara emirate was a multinational state where two great Asian traditions met - Turkic and Persian.

Kubur · 2nd October 2019, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thanks, Kubur.
It seems to me that there are a number of serious "But":
1) I can’t recall photos men from Iraq with such maces.

I do, will post later

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

2) I can’t remember similar maces in museums that would be attributed to Iraq

You are right

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

assume that these maces come from Iraq, it is strange that Olufsen brought several of these maces from Bukhara

You are right they have to be from Bukhara, especially because they are associated to bukharan shashka

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

On the other hand, I have not seen a single well-known publication about such maces, except for all of us known article by Torben Flindt.
This is rather strange, since logically such maces were supposed to get into Russia as trophies, and not just to Denmark ...

That's my problem, only one article but collectors will follow blindly

Kubur · 2nd October 2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It does not surprise me that Bukhara maces are similar to objects from other countries. The Bukhara emirate was a multinational state where two great Asian traditions met - Turkic and Persian.

Yes I'm just trying to think where this mace originate from and when

mahratt · 3rd October 2019, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I do, will post later

Do you mean the photo album in which the peoples of the Ottoman Empire were photographed in national costumes? In the photo there are usually three people nearby. Or some other photos?

Kubur · 3rd October 2019, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Do you mean the photo album in which the peoples of the Ottoman Empire were photographed in national costumes? In the photo there are usually three people nearby. Or some other photos?

You are absolutely terrific! Yes of course this one from Iraq and another one that I have to find. Some Sudanese alabaster maces are very similar and also some Indian rock crystal ones...

mahratt · 3rd October 2019, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

You are absolutely terrific! Yes of course this one from Iraq and another one that I have to find. Some Sudanese alabaster maces are very similar and also some Indian rock crystal ones...

Thanks Kubur

You're right, Iraqi, Indian and Sudanese maces are very similar. And I also thought about it.
Therefore, I guessed what kind of photo you thought about.
But ... All these maces are made in a completely different style. And the so-called "Bukhara maces", despite minor differences, are well recognizable and similar to each other. That is, they have one common style.
As I wrote earlier, I do not understand why there are no publications devoted to these maces, except for one, which is well known to us. But now I'm trying to figure it out. I am trying to find out if there are such maces in museums in Uzbekistan.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd October 2019, 04:37 PM

Maybe it is time to take an interest in the silver decoration, and compare it to silver decorations from Bukhara.
I knew Torben at the time he wrote the article, and he must have had very good reasons for saying this mace is from Bukhara.

mahratt · 3rd October 2019, 05:14 PM

Jens, I have no doubt about that. Olufsen brought to Denmark this collection of various weapons at the end of the 19th century from Bukhara. And Torben Flindt wrote a very good article.

Jens Nordlunde · 4th October 2019, 03:41 PM

Mahratt, maybe this will be of interest to you.
https://archive.org/details/emirbokh...fgoog/page/n13

mahratt · 4th October 2019, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Mahratt, maybe this will be of interest to you.
https://archive.org/details/emirbokh...fgoog/page/n13

Jens, thank you very much! I read this book. But I am very pleased that you want to help me! Thank you again! Unfortunately, I didn't find any mention about this mace in this book... But maybe I didn't read the book carefully?

Kubur · 4th October 2019, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Jens, thank you very much! I read this book. But I am very pleased that you want to help me! Thank you again! Unfortunately, I didn't find any mention about this mace in this book... But maybe I didn't read the book carefully?

Sometimes you are so polite and so kind that I suspect that you are a bit ironic... But I'm a bad man you are probably just a gentleman...
I know this book too! And of course these maces are Central Asian but like you i would like to know more...

mahratt · 4th October 2019, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sometimes you are so polite and so kind that I suspect that you are a bit ironic... But I'm a bad man you are probably just a gentleman...
I know this book too! And of course these maces are Central Asian but like you i would like to know more...

Hi Kubur
Previously, I was quite “sharp” and caustic in communication

But after the comments of the moderators forum I decided that it was much easier to be as polite as possible

I am sincerely grateful to Jens. He wanted to help me. He could not know that I had already read this book.

If I learn something new about these maces, I will definitely inform you of new information.

2nd October 2019, 09:04 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Mace from Bukhara. Recently, thanks to the help of one of my good friends from this forum, I bought this Bukhara mace for my collection. Does anyone have similar items in their collections? Attached Images

2nd October 2019, 01:41 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I think it's enough to compare the photo. Attached Images

2nd October 2019, 09:47 PM	#12
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I suspect that you mean Iraq’s “swamp arabs" or Kurds. Although, of course, I could be wrong and you thought about another country. Last edited by mahratt; 2nd October 2019 at 10:14 PM.

2nd October 2019, 12:30 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Elgood, Robert, ed., Islamic Arms and Armour, Scolar Press 1979. There is an article on the subject. Flindt, Torben W.: Some Nineteenth-Century Arms from Bukhara. The David Collection. Islamic Arms and Armour from Private Danish Collections. Pp. 128-129.

2nd October 2019, 12:54 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Oh yeah. Thank you. I have this book and this article. You correctly noted that my mace is from this private collection and was published in the article about which you wrote. I know it

2nd October 2019, 01:40 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dont know if the mace you have is the same as the one mentioned/shown in Torben W. Flindt's article. Maybe it is - you will have to be the judge. I have had the mace in my hands, and also saw it when it was exhibited at The David Collection - but it is many years ago.

2nd October 2019, 03:12 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Question: have you seen any engraving or ancient document showing Bukharan men with this mace? I think many of these maces so-called bukhara maces are not from Bukhara.

2nd October 2019, 04:26 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Mahratt, when you compare the marks on the stone head, to the ones in Toben's article, it does seem to be the same mace. Funny to see the mace again after so many years. Congratulations:-).

2nd October 2019, 07:25 PM	#8
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Yep, Those pic leave no doubt. Rotate yours about a quarter turn clockwise and the markings line up exactly.

2nd October 2019, 09:36 PM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I asked that because there is another country where they use silver and turquoise and they have maces also... I wonder if one member knows which country I'm talking about...

2nd October 2019, 10:44 PM	#15
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 370	It does not surprise me that Bukhara maces are similar to objects from other countries. The Bukhara emirate was a multinational state where two great Asian traditions met - Turkic and Persian.

3rd October 2019, 04:37 PM	#21
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maybe it is time to take an interest in the silver decoration, and compare it to silver decorations from Bukhara. I knew Torben at the time he wrote the article, and he must have had very good reasons for saying this mace is from Bukhara.

3rd October 2019, 05:14 PM	#22
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Jens, I have no doubt about that. Olufsen brought to Denmark this collection of various weapons at the end of the 19th century from Bukhara. And Torben Flindt wrote a very good article.

4th October 2019, 03:41 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Mahratt, maybe this will be of interest to you. https://archive.org/details/emirbokh...fgoog/page/n13