OLD DAGGER

nickolas33 · 28th September 2019, 01:05 AM

Hello dear friends
I am historical items collector but new in collecting swords and daggers.I have in my own a left hand dagger,but I do not know anything else about it.Please I need your opinion about this dagger.I hope by the photos you can have an idea about its originality or where it comes from.......
Thank you....Nick1

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M ELEY · 29th September 2019, 04:57 AM

Hmmm...Out of my comfort zone to usually reply on such pieces, but my first impression was that it was a fantasy-type reproduction of a Spanish main gauche. Old, certainly, but odd and exaggerated in construction. I can pretty safely say it is not a modern fake just due to its aging. Not a Historismis piece from the Victorian due to its unconventional styling. Then I began to suspect it might be a Spanish colonial knock-off of an original main gauche, which, if true, is pretty cool and desirable!

As you probably know, the Spaniards in the American Southwest were pretty hard up for supplies, weapons, tools, etc, and had to make do or create their own items to survive. This trend extended even to the use of native materials to create their own style of furniture and fixtures. The point being, colonial Spanish had it's own style and design, breaking away from the traditional patterns of Europe based on what they had and what they could creatively come up with. I am a huge fan of the designs, furniture and weapons from the colonial era. Many of their swords had makeshift hilts made by 'artisan' blacksmiths, recycled sword blades, reused hilt materials from other swords, etc. Thus, each piece could be rather eclectic. The hilt work on yours (to me) resembles the cut-out metal patterns similar to later Mexican espada (which I often compare to their spurs as well).

So...it could be Spanish colonial, but let's hear what other folks think. I don't think the Chinese fakers would create such a one-off, folk-artsy piece to try and fool anyone-

Mark

bvieira · 29th September 2019, 12:39 PM

Hello,

This is a very difficult one..... the kind is obvious spanish known as "SPANISH MAIN GAUGE LEFT HAND DAGGER" the problem is that your item is of poor construction quality, it seem to have the right "age" in the metal but the construction is poor, maybe the said above is true, it can be a colonial made object as i'am not seeing this made in spain where quality were assured by having some of the best swortsmiths in the world like in toledo...

BV

CSinTX · 29th September 2019, 02:36 PM

I agree with M ELEY. His explanation makes the most sense.

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 01:08 AM

The workmanship of Spanish colonial can be both bizarre and quite creative. When in a fix, they knew how to improvise. Because of the 'ersatz' nature of these pieces, it can cause much confusion in traditionalist collectors, who only see them as parts-swords/daggers or broken-up original patterns. In reality, they are their own unique forms, often one-off and folk-artsy, if you know what I mean. Thus, many collectors thumb their nose to them. I, on the other hand, find them unique and fascinating! You have a great piece there, Nickolas! Congrats!

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 01:14 AM

Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip.

The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project-

)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip.

The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project-

)

I am concerned that the item at #1 is put together by a blacksmith and not original. Your items display what I am looking for in an old piece which has aged over the centuries and is without a hard corner ...all the angles are softened with age... The project weapon, on the other hand, is full of sharp corners.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

bvieira · 30th September 2019, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I am concerned that the item at #1 is put together by a blacksmith and not original. Your items display what I am looking for in an old piece which has aged over the centuries and is without a hard corner ...all the angles are softened with age... The project weapon, on the other hand, is full of sharp corners.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree.

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 04:16 PM

Hello Ibrahiim and good to hear from you. Well, you do have a point there. Hard to tell without the item in hand (yes, I know. The ole fall-back

)

kronckew · 30th September 2019, 04:31 PM

Just because it's crude doesn't mean it's not 'original'.

see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVL46CM9k80

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_GYDq-nJY

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 06:21 PM

Point well taken, Wayne. It's just so hard to say with these type pieces. A blacksmith-made weapon and primitive nature is not what's in question. I think Ibrahiim's point is a question of actual age and usage. This piece has potential for both being a legit item versus a mock-up.

broadaxe · 30th September 2019, 08:30 PM

Something to take in consideration: 'sail' hilt daggers were mostly high-end objects, meaning the fit & finish on them were taken with effort and precision.

30th September 2019, 01:14 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip. The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project- ) Attached Images

28th September 2019, 01:05 AM	#1
nickolas33 Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 5	OLD DAGGER Hello dear friends I am historical items collector but new in collecting swords and daggers.I have in my own a left hand dagger,but I do not know anything else about it.Please I need your opinion about this dagger.I hope by the photos you can have an idea about its originality or where it comes from....... Thank you....Nick1 - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 28th September 2019 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Uploading images with correct forum features

29th September 2019, 04:57 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Hmmm...Out of my comfort zone to usually reply on such pieces, but my first impression was that it was a fantasy-type reproduction of a Spanish main gauche. Old, certainly, but odd and exaggerated in construction. I can pretty safely say it is not a modern fake just due to its aging. Not a Historismis piece from the Victorian due to its unconventional styling. Then I began to suspect it might be a Spanish colonial knock-off of an original main gauche, which, if true, is pretty cool and desirable! As you probably know, the Spaniards in the American Southwest were pretty hard up for supplies, weapons, tools, etc, and had to make do or create their own items to survive. This trend extended even to the use of native materials to create their own style of furniture and fixtures. The point being, colonial Spanish had it's own style and design, breaking away from the traditional patterns of Europe based on what they had and what they could creatively come up with. I am a huge fan of the designs, furniture and weapons from the colonial era. Many of their swords had makeshift hilts made by 'artisan' blacksmiths, recycled sword blades, reused hilt materials from other swords, etc. Thus, each piece could be rather eclectic. The hilt work on yours (to me) resembles the cut-out metal patterns similar to later Mexican espada (which I often compare to their spurs as well). So...it could be Spanish colonial, but let's hear what other folks think. I don't think the Chinese fakers would create such a one-off, folk-artsy piece to try and fool anyone- Mark

29th September 2019, 12:39 PM	#3
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Hello, This is a very difficult one..... the kind is obvious spanish known as "SPANISH MAIN GAUGE LEFT HAND DAGGER" the problem is that your item is of poor construction quality, it seem to have the right "age" in the metal but the construction is poor, maybe the said above is true, it can be a colonial made object as i'am not seeing this made in spain where quality were assured by having some of the best swortsmiths in the world like in toledo... BV

29th September 2019, 02:36 PM	#4
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	I agree with M ELEY. His explanation makes the most sense.

30th September 2019, 01:08 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	The workmanship of Spanish colonial can be both bizarre and quite creative. When in a fix, they knew how to improvise. Because of the 'ersatz' nature of these pieces, it can cause much confusion in traditionalist collectors, who only see them as parts-swords/daggers or broken-up original patterns. In reality, they are their own unique forms, often one-off and folk-artsy, if you know what I mean. Thus, many collectors thumb their nose to them. I, on the other hand, find them unique and fascinating! You have a great piece there, Nickolas! Congrats!

30th September 2019, 04:16 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Hello Ibrahiim and good to hear from you. Well, you do have a point there. Hard to tell without the item in hand (yes, I know. The ole fall-back )

30th September 2019, 04:31 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Just because it's crude doesn't mean it's not 'original'. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVL46CM9k80 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_GYDq-nJY

30th September 2019, 06:21 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Point well taken, Wayne. It's just so hard to say with these type pieces. A blacksmith-made weapon and primitive nature is not what's in question. I think Ibrahiim's point is a question of actual age and usage. This piece has potential for both being a legit item versus a mock-up.

30th September 2019, 08:30 PM	#12
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Something to take in consideration: 'sail' hilt daggers were mostly high-end objects, meaning the fit & finish on them were taken with effort and precision.